[Monstar]

Just thinking that the Mimara's child might be seriously affected by the Qiiri and possibly the Quirri mightallow a reincarnation of the Non-Ma who the ashes belong to.

Although it could be wishful thinking, I just want to see some more serious magical duelling and can't help but think that Kellhus would blow Akka or whoever out of the ground without even thinking.

[mrganondorf]

@SilentRoamer - Too true, I'm also thinking about what Kellhus said to his dad, that Moenghus detected the skin spies through voice.

@ Monstar - Why do you write "Kallus" instead of "Khellus"?  I don't get it! 

MG, why do you write "Kellhus" and "Khellus"?  I don't get it!

Monstar, could Sorweel be Bakker's Red Viper?

I don't know I just remembered that way, Ill change over now!

Lol, I do that too--slightly related: growing up in the US south, I try to avoiding saying "wheel" in public because no matter what, it doesn't sound right (to the thems, sounds fine to me).

[larrytheimp]

She sees herself with short hair and heavily pregnant in WLW ch6, just after first learning that she is pregnant.  The JE seems to transcend time.

That is troublesome to me. Might it be that the damnation that it apparently sees is the subjects end-of-life damnation. The sum of all the decision they have made and what they will make. So for example, akka is damned as viewed by TJE, but he may not yet have committed the act/acts that got him to that point.

Also, could be that it shows damnation that has been rescinded.... if Kellhus is legit then shouldn't Akka have been damned in the past but then 'cleansed' by Kellhus's decree?  So it could be showing past damnation too.

[Cüréthañ]

I've noted this before, Larry.  Akka is very likely damned for a lot more than just sorcery, if that is your meaning.

Also, Kellhus tries to pull the "I can save you" routine on Aurang in TTT and instantly realizes that Aurang knows he can't do that. 

I'm not sure, do you think Kellhusian Inrithism is geared towards actually helping people avoid damnation by changing cultural attitudes to the mysterious 'absolute morality', or that a remission from a Prophet or a change in scripture would affect individuals' fate/change the absolute morality?

Imo, the JE shows how a soul will end up in the outside based on temporal projections of current causal flow (i.e. fate).  My reasoning is based on when she tells Galian "it's not too late".

[Wilshire]

Imo, the JE shows how a soul will end up in the outside based on temporal projections of current causal flow (i.e. fate).  My reasoning is based on when she tells Galian "it's not too late".

I thought the whole idea behind fate was that it was outside your own personal control. Is that wrong? For this reason, I feel like what you just head refutes your own claim.

[Cüréthañ]

Fate has several definitions.  I'm kinda using it in this sense;

2. the universal principle or ultimate agency by which the order of things is presumably prescribed; the decreed cause of events; time.

I take the Dunyain idea of the logos to be an actual thing in Earwa.

The Emperical Priority Principle (sometimes referred to as the Principle of Before and After) asserts that within the circle of the world, what comes before determines what comes after without exception.  The Rational Priority Principle asserts that Logos, or Reason, lies outside the circle of the world (though only in a formal and not an ontological sense). The Epistemological Principle asserts that knowing what comes before (via the Logos) yields "control" of what comes after.

(my bold)

Galian is damned by fate.  Mimara believes that he can alter his fate through understanding himself and the application of reason.

[SilentRoamer]

I've noted this before, Larry.  Akka is very likely damned for a lot more than just sorcery, if that is your meaning.

Also, Kellhus tries to pull the "I can save you" routine on Aurang in TTT and instantly realizes that Aurang knows he can't do that. 

I'm not sure, do you think Kellhusian Inrithism is geared towards actually helping people avoid damnation by changing cultural attitudes to the mysterious 'absolute morality', or that a remission from a Prophet or a change in scripture would affect individuals' fate/change the absolute morality?

Imo, the JE shows how a soul will end up in the outside based on temporal projections of current causal flow (i.e. fate).  My reasoning is based on when she tells Galian "it's not too late".

Curethan I don't have the text on me so will need to check. I thought it went the other way. Kellhus told Aurang that he was beyond redemption.

[mrganondorf]

@ larrytheimp - I don't remember the specifics of the decree, but I would imagine that it came with a proviso: the damnation of sorcery is lifted IF you follow Kellhus. 

I'm betting that Akka appears damned because of the sum of his sins, perhaps even one's he hasn't yet committed.  TUC is just begging for a Judas role!  Akka kills the prophet, loses Esmi and Mimara, and is generally fucked by Fate once again.

[Garet Jax]

I am not sure if I have brought this up anywhere outside of Quorum, but I am curious to see if anybody has a theory on why Mimara is not damned or marked after performing sorcery.


The Judging Eye - US First Edition Hardcover Page 339/340.


She carries the Surillic Point for Akka, and he actually even says it's just a small cant. 


Is it because he summoned it and she only carried it, because she grasped it with her soul rather than with utteral/inutteral, or am I going bat shit insane?

[Cüréthañ]

Two issues.

First is simple.  The mark does not = damnation, it's just ugly.
Inanimate objects can bear the mark, that's a big deal imo.
Also things created with sorcery, e.g. the light of a surillic point and sorcerous artifacts bear the mark.
That is why Malowebi is so moved when he sees the water.
Also, viewing it does not impart knowledge of damnation.(When TJE is used Mimara always describes the Mark seperately)
Akka et al can also see the Mark and descibe it the same as Mim but aren't convinced of damnation.

Secondly you have answered your own question somewhat. Mim only held the cant, she did not create the light.  So she did not invoke the power herself.

Interesting that she sees herself in a reflection.  Are the mark and damnation really frequencies that can be reflected?  Or perhaps it is an illusion sent by Kellhus or something?
Or is Bakker messing with Jayden Smith level philosophy?  8o

YOU MUST TELL ME!
How can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real?

Calling it, Jayden Smith is the No-God.

[The Sharmat]

Given what we know of the Gods, and their feelings towards Kellhus, I don't believe that Kellhus has the power to undue damnation. The Gods are basically huge Ciphrang, and if they want to torture your soul once it passes fully into the Outside, they'll do it. They're the ground on which Earwa's morality is based.

Given that, I really hope the Fanim are right.

[Wilshire]

But if the Gods have finite power, and there exists a way for new gods to pop into existence, than Kellhus might have the power to do whatever he wants. If he can become one of the 100, then all the souls that reach for him will be 'saved'.

[The Sharmat]

Maybe. If such a thing is possible, and he knows a way. Though what Kellhus would do once he became a God, I have no idea. When you're a passionless self moving soul, what moves you?

[Garet Jax]

Maybe. If such a thing is possible, and he knows a way. Though what Kellhus would do once he became a God, I have no idea. When you're a passionless self moving soul, what moves you?

Exterminating and/or dominating all competition. Good bye fellow Dunyain, good bye Ciphrang, good bye Consult... Hello Solitary God.

[The Sharmat]

And...then what? A God that was truly Dunyain would be an absent God.