[Wic]

Interesting to think of how, just as armies are considered merely the meatshields used to ferry the actually useful sorcerers, that the whole Ordeal is a meat/metaphysical (which I now dub metameatshield) vehicle to do no more than propel Kellhus to Golgotterath.

But then, why?  If he was at all interested in allying with the Consult (or simply did not care what they do one way or another so long as he gets his) he surely wouldn't need to slaughter a quarter million people and allow his empire to collapse. 

Nerdanel: Kellhus wants to use the tekne and the metagnosis to create a ship capable of entering the Outside and doing a little redecorating. 

Anyway, I'm of the mind that he truly intends to destroy the evil that is the Consult, though I am on the fence about whether this makes him insane or is a totally reasonable perspective, given the crazy magical nature of the world.  If any Dunyain survive, they probably side with the consult, as Kellhus predicted any regular ol' Dunyain would do in his conversation with Moe (unless he slaughtered them because of it).  And then he dies as the savior of the world, stepping into the Outside with the full, hand-glowy might of such a position.  If that happens it seems like others have said, that it will parallel the FA, Akka kneeling with Kell's head in his lap, etc etc.

Then he vomits up a flaming sword and puts gods to death.  Next step: The God.

[Francis Buck]

I agree with Curethan in regards to the World becoming disenchanted, though I don't think it will happen until the very end of the series. I think that's the end goal though.

If I had to bet, I believe that Kellhus is intentionally going to become the No-God, which also (somewhat ironically) serves as mechanism for becoming The Solitary God. All souls in the universe are captured and condensed into a single entity (including the Hundred, Ciphrang, everything), which is a Monad-like Sum of All Consciousness. That is the God "awakening", and it only sleeps now because it's "splintered into a million warring pieces", as Kellhus said. All souls are removed, Outside is shut, no more sorcery, everyone basically becomes a skin-spy (resulting in Bakker's idea of what our universe basically is). I think Akka will end up doing one of two things: A) He will join the Consult, after finding out that Seswatha did the same, or B) He will continue obssesively, and futiley, fighting against the Consult even when their intentions end up seeming "good". This is all hinges on my belief that the Consult are, in reality, sort of anti-heroes. The Hundred are the true "bad guys" (obviously it's kind of silly to think of "good guys and bad guys" in such a complex series, but it's for the sake of discussion). As I've mentioned before, I think one of Bakker's intentions with the series was to create what seemed like the most evil group imaginable (The Consult), only to trump them with something even worse (The Hundred). A few million dead humans, the cost of bringing back the No-God, is nothing compared to an entire universe worth of damned beings. The absolute worst tortures the Consult could conceive are nothing compared to damnation, and damnation is on a scale that utterly dwarfs the atrocities the Consult has committed.

I have no clue how much of this I think will actually happen in TUC. I'm kinda confused about it actually, particular that one quote Bakker had about TUC being the end-point of the series as he originally imagined it.

[Cüréthañ]

Awesome thoughts, Wic and FB.

I'm not convinced being the no-god is something anyone would aspire to.  He doesn't seem very happy.

I'm not sure how the God can awaken?  If it is omnipresent throughout time, how can it think or act?  If there were no gaps in your perception and everything seemed to occur both simultaneously and constantly, how can you act or think?  Memory becomes the same as being.  ha ha ha ha ha

FB, I understand not being comfortable with the possibilities of TSTSNBN but I feel like TUC is going to be a more conclusive ending than TTT.
I'm interested in how you think things will end for the major characters' arcs, because I think if anything is left hanging, it will be those big metaphysical ambiguities.

[Madness]

But then, why?  If he was at all interested in allying with the Consult (or simply did not care what they do one way or another so long as he gets his) he surely wouldn't need to slaughter a quarter million people and allow his empire to collapse.

Tekne. And Kellhus is not just walking up to say "diddly neighbourino," Golgotterath's the last house on the block he's taking by force or coercion. Stinking Consult - Kellhus will make them weep for mastering their lost craft.

Also, +1 Metameatshield.

...

Lol. Nerdaneling hard.

In my opinion, if Kellhus does anything qualified as 'good,' then he is no longer Dunyain (as we've traditionally assumed them motivated) unless it is strictly a correspondence of cause, not an end in and of itself.

B) He will continue obssesively, and futiley, fighting against the Consult even when their intentions end up seeming "good". This is all hinges on my belief that the Consult are, in reality, sort of anti-heroes.

NooooOOOOOoooOOOOooooOOOOoooooo .

The Hundred are the true "bad guys" (obviously it's kind of silly to think of "good guys and bad guys" in such a complex series, but it's for the sake of discussion). As I've mentioned before, I think one of Bakker's intentions with the series was to create what seemed like the most evil group imaginable (The Consult), only to trump them with something even worse (The Hundred). A few million dead humans, the cost of bringing back the No-God, is nothing compared to an entire universe worth of damned beings. The absolute worst tortures the Consult could conceive are nothing compared to damnation, and damnation is on a scale that utterly dwarfs the atrocities the Consult has committed.

I have no clue how much of this I think will actually happen in TUC. I'm kinda confused about it actually, particular that one quote Bakker had about TUC being the end-point of the series as he originally imagined it.

Maybe? Damnation has not been established as bad enough for me to consider tolerating the Consult. Nor do I think the Consult necessarily have the most effective solution (but arguably, if Kellhus doesn't kill as many achieving the same end, he's simply more efficient than the Inchoroi or the Consult).

FB, I understand not being comfortable with the possibilities of TSTSNBN but I feel like TUC is going to be a more conclusive ending than TTT.
I'm interested in how you think things will end for the major characters' arcs, because I think if anything is left hanging, it will be those big metaphysical ambiguities.

Lol - this makes me think that TSTSNBN is a ruse. Fuck.

[Wilshire]

As I've mentioned before, I think one of Bakker's intentions with the series was to create what seemed like the most evil group imaginable (The Consult), only to trump them with something even worse (The Hundred).

What is the suffering or mortal men for a few thousand years compared to the everlasting torture of all men's souls for eternity?

[Francis Buck]

I'm not convinced being the no-god is something anyone would aspire to.  He doesn't seem very happy.

I only think Kellhus would want to do so if it served as a mechanism for becoming the God. Which I think is a relatively decent possibility at this point. The consciousness we see emerging (and asking questions) is the result of the all the souls being captured and condensed into one entity. It's a baby God (the real God, not something like whatever the Hundred are -- which I suspect are similar to super-ciphrang, but also more complex than that).

I'm not sure how the God can awaken?  If it is omnipresent throughout time, how can it think or act?  If there were no gaps in your perception and everything seemed to occur both simultaneously and constantly, how can you act or think?  Memory becomes the same as being.  ha ha ha ha ha

Not sure I'm interpreting you correctly, but to your question: It can't think or act, at least not yet. It's not, at this point in the story, really a "thing" yet. It's still split up into a million warring splinters, as Kellhus said to the Nonmen messengers. It is awakened by Kellhus becoming the No-God, merging all of the souls in the universe, and then closing the Outside (and him, now the Awakened God, still in the Outside). It leaves the universe essentially the same as our own; purely material. No souls, no sorcery.

I do believe that this ties into the whole Kahit, world-conspires malarkey, and also the timeline. I think that everything in the Bakkerverse is predestined (although free will still exists for the ensouled beings, they were just always going to make whatever decisions they made). This is also why Kellhus seems insane, and sort of it is, but also kind of isn't. He has seen the Shortest Path, the Thousandfold Thought, and it ends with him becoming the God. He also serves, in a way, as the saviour not just of mankind, but of all the souls in the universe, by freeing them from their shells (possibly enforced by the Demiurge-like Hundred) and then allows them to become one, ultimate being, the Absolute. I don't have the exact quotes, but there are sequences where Kellhus actually pretty clearly illustrates how the Dunyain's concept of the Absolute is very much like the real-life Gnostic concept of the Monad (also known, in real life, as the Absolute). I'll try to find them. I believe one of the scenes takes place when Akka's training him.

FB, I understand not being comfortable with the possibilities of TSTSNBN but I feel like TUC is going to be a more conclusive ending than TTT.
I'm interested in how you think things will end for the major characters' arcs, because I think if anything is left hanging, it will be those big metaphysical ambiguities.

Yeah, that's what I'm unclear on. If it really is quite conclusive, then I'm not sure what I feel about the various characters, or even how these things I've mentioned will play out. Do you think that TSTSNBN is actually going to be more of an epilogue sort of thing?

NooooOOOOOoooOOOOooooOOOOoooooo .

Lol, you have to admit it would be a rather tragic and poetic arc for the character though.

Maybe? Damnation has not been established as bad enough for me to consider tolerating the Consult. Nor do I think the Consult necessarily have the most effective solution (but arguably, if Kellhus doesn't kill as many achieving the same end, he's simply more efficient than the Inchoroi or the Consult).

Well yeah, that's what all this rides one. What is damnation, really? I tend to lean towards it really being as bad as the Inverse Fire makes it seem. I mean, it would kind of undercut a huge part of the tension, suspense, and stakes of the series if, in the end, it's just like, "Ah, well, damnation isn't so bad afterall!". If that is the case, I'm very damn curious to see how Bakker could possibly turn it back around and still maintain that sense of epic stakes that the series is well-loved for.

What is the suffering or mortal men for a few thousand years compared to the everlasting torture of all men's souls for eternity?

Nothing really, that's the point of what I'm saying. Not sure I get what you mean really?

[Cüréthañ]

So awakening God is the same as killing it?  'Cause 'God is dead' seems like a fitting end to me.  Khellus = Niestche (beyond good and evil, he brings the final argument).

[Madness]

FB, as a whole I like your post. I'm not sure that is where Bakker is going with it - because I think he's likely to obliterate the Absolute (in the sense you've used it), rather than leave it happily amalgamated in the Outside. But specifics...

Yeah, that's what I'm unclear on. If it really is quite conclusive, then I'm not sure what I feel about the various characters, or even how these things I've mentioned will play out. Do you think that TSTSNBN is actually going to be more of an epilogue sort of thing?

I really, really hope not. I still hold by my opinion that Bakker is talking about the essential kernel of the story, which he's always worked towards since he was like 16 - which obviously became more once the story began to take serious shape. In Machiavelli's writings the ruler's, apparently, insoluble Gordian Knot is being morally Righteous while still being necessitated to commit evil.

NooooOOOOOoooOOOOooooOOOOoooooo .

Lol, you have to admit it would be a rather tragic and poetic arc for the character though.

Yeah... .

Maybe? Damnation has not been established as bad enough for me to consider tolerating the Consult. Nor do I think the Consult necessarily have the most effective solution (but arguably, if Kellhus doesn't kill as many achieving the same end, he's simply more efficient than the Inchoroi or the Consult).

Well yeah, that's what all this rides one. What is damnation, really? I tend to lean towards it really being as bad as the Inverse Fire makes it seem. I mean, it would kind of undercut a huge part of the tension, suspense, and stakes of the series if, in the end, it's just like, "Ah, well, damnation isn't so bad afterall!". If that is the case, I'm very damn curious to see how Bakker could possibly turn it back around and still maintain that sense of epic stakes that the series is well-loved for.

I don't expect him to be gentle but I don't expect something like that. However, again, Damnation is like a side argument for me. Regardless of the ambomination's finished potential as the star of book burnings everywhere, nothing could possibly overturn the epic for me... Bakker would have to go straight Dickensian on this shit and I'd still read the first five.

[locke]

Posted this to the turtle thread at the other forum in a longer form, but it goes here too, my spoil it all prediction for how it all ends:

We readers just willfully misinterpret Kellhus because we are primed by genre and history to expect him to take the path of saving the world.  But what if Kellhus takes the dead twig because killing off the world, letting humanity become extinct is the only way to end the cycle of damnation?
 
The only end game is xenocide, it's the merciful death, quick euthanasia.  Because Kellhus weighs the value of making humanity extinct and finds that that will reduce human suffering more because it won't subject infinite future generations to damnation as well. 
 
Making humanity extinct puts a finite end to previously infinite suffering.  They are not equal, the dead twig is the better outcome.  He's searching for meaninglessness in a meaningful world.

[Madness]

I took Curethan's suggestion into consideration and moved some of our posts (including those most recent) to My spoil it all prediction for what the overall setting is.

[Cüréthañ]

Thanks Madness

[Madness]

No, no. Thank YOU for participating so I don't have to wonder about what is appropriate. I like our communal segues but I also appreciate the freedom to concentrate on one particular line of speculation in a thread - instead of the alternative swamping .

[mrganondorf]

I'm hoping UC ends with an epic scene of K using the gnosis+daimos+dunyain intellect to call something even bigger than a ciphrang to the battlefield.  NG vs the hundred?  Yatwer a temporary slave to K?  Actually, I bet that will be a little bit before the end.  I'm expecting K to dispose with Aurang, Mekeritrig, and Shauriatas and then have an intimate chat with Aurax deep in Ark's bowels.  (V) 0,,,0 (V)

[Madness]

I definitely think that there will be another climatic talk but my money is on it being between Kellhus and Meppa (though, I've alternatively nerdaneled Kellhus talking with the Consult) while the Holy War dies...

[Wilshire]

Really... with Meppa? I doubt Kellhus will come back to talk to meppa. Maybe with Kelmomas or another 1/2 dunyain, but I don't see Kellhus returning. I think its more likely that he left his empire to die.

Any big conversation he has will probably be with a Nonman (erratic or intact) with an intimate knowledge of the Consult.