[Seökti]

My understanding is that the Cishaurim don't use utterals because having a 'fixed' meaning is besides the point: it is the function and intensity of ANY given meaning that concerns them.  There only needs to be an inutteral because the 'Water' is felt, not grasped through concept.  'Fixing' the meaning would limit its scope and intensity, things which power the pouring of the water.  This is also why their sorcery has no mark, they are not attempting to 'edit' or 'overwrite' the real by replacing on fixed meaning (or object) with another but are attempting instead to realize (both in terms of comprehension and in terms of making real) the vast potential for meaning already found within the present.  They dispense with the 'why' of the gnosis and anagnosis and focus instead on the 'how'.

[Wilshire]

Was it mentioned that the Dunyain could have escentially full conversations without uttering any words, or at least very few, by just looking at each other? I ask because this happens in one of Issac Asimov's books, so I could be getting it confused.
Whatever, if meaning can be obtained through gestures and minture muscle movements, should sorcery confine "utteral" cants to vocalized? We know that the language itself is not important, so why use language at all? I guess the Cish use emotion, which may not be confined by language, but I consider that "inutteral"
.
Anyone else think that it would be possible to have enough purity of intent/meaning to manifest the utteral component of sorcery without any language at all?

Those thoughts seemed relevant. There are some discussion regarding this topic in the Sorcery thread.

Really interesting first couple posts Seokti. Anyway, it does seem that the Cish remain silent, or at least are capable of doing some magic without words.

[anasurimbor moenghus]

three kinds of water
river sea and sulfur blood
a bad moon rising

[mrganondorf]

I WAS THINKING, IF THE CISHAURIM CAN SEND DREAMS AND IF THEY ARE NOT BOUND BY HAVING TO KNOW BEFOREHAND THE PLACE/PERSON WHO IS RECEIVING, THEN THAT IS BASICALLY SOMETHING LIKE WIRELESS NEUROPUNCTURE.

THINK WHAT MOENGHUS COULD DO WITH 20 YEARS OF THAT POWER!

FOR EXAMPLE, HE KNOWS THAT THE 3SEAS MUST UNITE AND THAT THE WAY TO DO IT IS TO STAGE A CONFLICT BETWEEN INRITHI AND FANIM, THUS THE INRITHI WILL BE LIMITED AS LONG AS THE SCYLVENDI THREATEN THE CITY OF THE TUSK.  SO MOE GOES OUT OF HIS WAY TO USE DREAMS TO MOLD THE MILITARY GENIUS, CONPHAS TO TAKE CARE OF IT.

HE MOLDS THE OTHERS TOO: SAUBON, PROYAS, SCARLET SPIRES GUYS

BONUS: EVERYONE IMPORTANT THAT THE CISHAURIM CAN'T SEND DREAMS TOO, WELL THAT RIGHT THERE TELLS YOU WHO IS A SKIN SPY

[The Sharmat]

I see no  ]reason to believe the Cishaurim don't have to know where they are to do dream sendings.

[Wilshire]

I see no  ]reason to believe the Cishaurim don't have to know where they are to do dream sendings.

Yeah why just the Cish, MG? Apply same logic to Meta-gnosis, or whatever it is that the Zeum schoolmen have, and all you get is a clusterfuck of unknowable and untraceable magical tinkering that has never even been hinted at after 5 books.

I'm going to be upset if there is some unmentioned dues ex machina invisible Cish magic that is revealed in TUC to have been happening in the background the entire time.

[The Sharmat]

The Zeumi school is Anagogic, I thought?

Though I suppose after such a long separation their version of the Anagogis could be different from the Three Seas variety to an extent.

[Wilshire]

Yeah its anagogic of some kind, but it uses totems and other items to help with the magic. Just seemed ripe for rule bending since we know so little about it, like the Psuke and meta-gnosis.

[The Sharmat]

That's nifty. Maybe they use some kind of fetish to fix the meaning instead of an utteral, sometimes?

[mrganondorf]

I see no  ]reason to believe the Cishaurim don't have to know where they are to do dream sendings.

Yeah why just the Cish, MG? Apply same logic to Meta-gnosis, or whatever it is that the Zeum schoolmen have, and all you get is a clusterfuck of unknowable and untraceable magical tinkering that has never even been hinted at after 5 books.

I'm going to be upset if there is some unmentioned dues ex machina invisible Cish magic that is revealed in TUC to have been happening in the background the entire time.

For 2 reasons: No one but the Cishuarim has a Dunyain before Kellhus arrives (so maybe it's impossible to do without a Dunyain intellect) and it could leave a mark (even if faint) of sorcery if anyone but the Cish do it.  I'm reminded of this bit from TDTCB p 97, Akka thinking about using compulsion on Inrau to spy on the 1000 Temples

     

But if he'd used the Cants of Compulsion, sooner or later the Luthymae, the College of monks and priests that managed the Thousand Temples' own vast network of spies, would have identified the mark of sorcery upon Inrau.  Not all of the Few became sorcerers.  Many used the "gift" to war against the Schools.  And the College of Luthymae, Achamian had no doubt, would kill Inrau for bearing sorcery's mark.  He had lost agents to them before.

After Kellhus takes over, I don't know why he wouldn't use the metagnosis for dreams.  Wild side thing--wouldn't it be cool if Luthymae had super warriors who were expertly trained to assassinate sorcerers?

To me, the Psukhe is not necessarily a deus ex machina if Bakker has foreshadowed it enough (we'll only know at the point of revelation if the foreshadowing is proportional to the revelation) and if he continues to foreshadow it.  I'm expecting 'psukhe is everywhere' to be wrong, really, but...

@ The Sharmat - I think that the devices the Zeumi sorcerers use are called fetishes.  But I don't know if they are really different from the other anagogic schools--i bet some knowledge of sorcery + objects remains with the anagogic schools here and there.  In the Ancient North, it seemed to be a bigger deal.  The fetishes might also be used to communicate in with someone who is not one of the Few.  I think the Zeumi sorcerer following Fanayal communicates with the Zeumi king, and he is not explicitly stated as being a sorcerer.  maybe?

[geoint]

I think it would be a waste of manpower to train the College of Luthymae as assassins when they are perfectly capable of being full fledged sorcerers now.  The only type of troop that seems to be trained to kill sorcerers are chorae bowmen and Acha demonstrated in Iothiah how easily they can be dispatched by a sorcerer who pays attention to where the chorae are around him.  You cant burn them directly but you can pull walls down on them or collapse the floor/ground underneath them, all while keeping them out of your line of sight! 

[Wilshire]

The only advantage would be that they bare no mark, but like you said they wouldn't be able to carry any kind of chorae or it would amount to the same thing. Considering that, it does seem like a waste, as they could only be used as scouts to signal that a sorcerer was around, which while somewhat useful is not really an advantage when you have to choose between that and a real sorcerer.

[H]

People have been discussing this of late, so I think it is time to reboot this thread.

Let's start with the idea, is Water itself Divine?

It seems like it, since Water doesn't leave a Mark.  However, if that is true, then all Cishaurim are Divine workers.  This doesn't seem correct to me, visa vis, Moe, who despite zero spirituality, can wield the Water nearly as well as anyone.  Also, confounding this, is what is revealed in The False Sun, that Titirga basically can wield the Water, at least in some rudimentary form.  He is also with any, seemingly, Divinity or even Divine guidance.

I think the connection between Water and the Divine is the opposite?  Water isn't Divine.  Divinity flows from Water, so to speak?

I need to think more on that, I am sort of rambling now...

[profgrape]

That's a really interesting inversion, H, conceiving Water as an abstraction for the source of all divinity.

When RSB described the Psukhe as being about impetus rather than representation, I interpreted it leveraging the intent behind natural forces.  Extending Acquinas' argument of the unmoved mover, it's God's thought that that causes his divine hand to set something in motion.

Imagine that Earwa is a vast sea of unrealized potentialities (reality seeds, if you will), the Water.  The impetus of Solitary God causes some to be realized as tangible forces (a gust of wind, for example).  But the rest lie dormant. 

It could be that the Psukhe allows practitioners to realize this otherwise dormant impetus.  And there is no mark because they're working "within the system" rather than forcibly changing the end result.

[Simas Polchias]

since Water doesn't leave a Mark.

Oh, your line gave me a funny insight.

Why to use word "water" in the first place? Yeah, I remember the stuff about tribe of water-bearers, an important people in the wasteland. But. Water doesn't leave a Mark, you're so right, water is all about opposite. Water can dilute filth or even wash it away completely. So. First cishs named their power just because it spared them of their Marks or, maybe, even damnationl?