[What Came Before]

You want causality. Something happened because something happened prior, to bring it about.

Generally I'm okay with a 'just because' when the author latter brings in reasons why it happened. Even if in the writing process he had something happen, then made up why it happened afterward while he was writing.

Otherwise I get it - when something seems to 'just happen', it spoils things, it undermines the solidness of the fictional world.

[mrganondorf]

I can't get it out of my head that the whole event could be psukhe.  Psukhe could get Kellhus to pull out his own heart (and crack the floor with beads of blood--doesn't that happen?), psukhe could send dreams into Kellhus mind to convince him he's got a special connection to Mog, psukhe could convey thoughts to Cnaiur 'as if' Kellhus was talking to him while K is hanging upside down, and psukhe could cause a starved holy war to beat a massively greater host.

We know the cish are there, and they don't seem to help out much during the battle!  I'm thinking it's all a lie about Moe having no water, or it simply doesn't matter--he dominates them that does.

Bonus points?  Psukhe could arrange for Kellhus to be saved at the right moment by the trapper and on the hill of sranc by Cnaiur.  Such close brushes with death make me think they were setups!  More dunyain level propaganda to bend one of their own into a tool.  Psukhe could make halooooesss, I think (but why the hell would cish put haloes on the skin spy that rapes serwe?).

[Wilshire]

Well we know that Moenghus knew Kellhus would be hanging from that tree, or thereabout. It is possible that he sent him dreams, so I'll give you that.

As for halos, lies that are preferable to the truth are more readily believed.

[Madness]

Wow, Wilshire.

Simple and elegant.

The tree in the "No-God" dream sequence is the tree above the Kyudean Mansion. The figure bent like a monk is Moenghus. Kellhus was supposed to realize that Moenghus would test his Dunyainity before meeting with him.

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The trial broke Kellhus.

[Wilshire]

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The trial broke Kellhus.

noooooooooooooo

Wow, Wilshire.

Simple and elegant.

The tree in the "No-God" dream sequence is the tree above the Kyudean Mansion. The figure bent like a monk is Moenghus. Kellhus was supposed to realize that Moenghus would test his Dunyainity before meeting with him.

Great now I have to go back and read it to see if its possible. We've got a thread around here somewhere.....

[mrganondorf]

Revisiting the Circumfix and thinking about the whole thing being orchestrated by the psukhe, that would fit would 1) that the Cishaurim are there (Akka and Xin saw them), 2) there's no evidence that the Cishaurim helped the Kianene forces in the battle at the end of TWP, and 3) the impossibility of a smaller, weaker force defeating the Kianene no matter what kind of conviction they have--the Cish helped crush the Padirajah.

[Wilshire]

Hmmm but the human spirit conquers all! Love trumps everything! ...

You're right, that does seem like a bit of optimism, which makes it out of place. Dunno if its the Psuke, but perhaps they did have some unseen help. Remember the Consult feared the Cish as well.

[mrganondorf]

Hmmm but the human spirit conquers all! Love trumps everything! ...

You're right, that does seem like a bit of optimism, which makes it out of place. Dunno if its the Psuke, but perhaps they did have some unseen help. Remember the Consult feared the Cish as well.

I feel stupid for admitting it, but that never occurred to me!  Now you got me thinking of all the ways the Consult could have helped.  Aurang, being the Battle Master of Abominations has a last ditch contingency in place for just such an unlikely scenario.  It includes:

- Extra infusion of skin spies to help the Holy War.
- Extra infusion of skin spies to sabotage the Fanim.
- All skin spies fighting for the Holy War are super fit for fighting, having secretly cannibalizing others to keep up their strength and just being hardier in general.
- Some possible fringe use of sorcery.  It would have to be done just right so as not to stick out too much from the SS magic during the melee.  Maybe some selective use of glamors?  Making a rushing mob of Inrithi seem like they are 50 yards away when they are really 10 would be very effective.  The person who would most likely notice it, Kellhus, wouldn't necessarily be inclined to say anything.
- Other secret Consult methods employed of which we won't learn about until TUC.  They'll be used against the Great Ordeal!

- Plus a couple of bashrags in blonde wigs that are just referred to as "Yalgrotta's cousins"

The victory at Caraskand seems so unlikely to me, I think it's got to be Cishaurim or Consult or gods.

[The Sharmat]

The victory at Caraskand seems unlikely. Unlikely...but not impossible. Battles have been won in similar situation in real life. What is said here:

Hmmm but the human spirit conquers all!

Is true, to an extent. In battle, an iron age set piece battle especially, will to fight is arguably the most important thing there is. Like Caesar's final battle with Pompey, when by all rights he should have lost, he prevailed. It was all down to a bit of luck AND the fact that Caesar's men must win or die. Pompey's men had other options. The same is true a Caraskand. Every man of the Holy war knew that he must triumph on the field or die that very day. The Fanim on the other hand, had the option of fleeing if things started to go bad. Sun Tzu has a quote about it that I can't entirely remember that goes something along the lines of "If you want to learn how hard men can fight, leave them no avenue of retreat."

Also never underestimate the power of shock. The human mind can take tremendous abuse if it is prepared for it. Surprises though? Surprises sap your morale with alarming alacrity.  A soldier that's been in a dozen battles can develop PTSD from a single ambush.

The Fanim expected an easy victory against a starved and despairing rabble. When they fought screaming fanatics with iron wills instead, they were left shocked and disoriented. Much easier to rout.

These two things combined, the desperation and superior morale of the Men of the Tusk, and the lesser will to fight and surprise employed against the Fanim, led to the Padirajah's host being routed.

noooooooooooooo

Why does this dismay you so? Kellhus is a monster. He deserves to be broken. The only reason he's even a protagonist is because the antagonists are even more monstrous.

[SilentRoamer]

Why does this dismay you so? Kellhus is a monster. He deserves to be broken. The only reason he's even a protagonist is because the antagonists are even more monstrous.

Kellhus is more! He bore the Circumfix for all Men and performed a miracle. Don't be a hater.

[Wilshire]

Good points about the fight. They were still fighting human enemies at that point. Maybe a bit different if it were sranc legions. Win or die is a difficult enemy to beat.

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But I guess the GO is going well enough up to this point so maybe it doesn't matter.

--
Not dismay so much as disbelief.

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I dislike Moenghus' character and dislike the prospect of him being correct. Of course, if future events change things I wouldn't mind.

[The Sharmat]

The Sranc aren't an army. They're a swarm. Not the same thing at all. The rules of morale are different with them. As seen when White Luck Warrior Spoilers

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they suddenly turned back on the Great Ordeal in berserk fury instead of fleeing when they reached critical mass at an unfordable river. There was no rational acceptance in the Sranc mind that "I must win here or die" like there was with the Men of the Tusk at Caraskand. I think it more likely the reaction was one that amounted to subconscious, hard wired decision making based on simple inputs like "I have received tactile stimuli from another Sranc >X number of times within the last T time. Sranc pheromone concentration currently >Y parts per million, BERSERK MODE ACTIVATE" resulting in a total change in behavior. Similar simple triggers cause army ants to attack or retreat, or Locusts to begin swarming instead of living in solitude. Rules like this allow the Inchoroi to create a weapon race that can respond dynamically to a variety of situations without being either particularly intelligent or possessing any appreciable amount of foresight.

At least, that's how I'd do a bioweapon of that sort. I think the way the Sranc consistently behave supports my analysis though. I think Bakker's read a bit about self organizing systems and emergent properties.

[The Sharmat]

As for halos, lies that are preferable to the truth are more readily believed.

I'm re-reading this and during the battle of Anwurat, when a Skin-Spy wearing Kellhus' face is plying Serwe, she sees halos on its hands too.

Apparently all you have to do to see halos is believe really hard, because I'm pretty sure that Skin-Spy wasn't a prophet.

EDIT: And I see someone brought this up up-thread and I missed it. Oops.

[locke]

Yeah those halos are one of the most talked about scenes of the series.  But how do we know that data point was a rule and not an exception?

One data point is one data point.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

[The Sharmat]

The fact that it's an exception is the important thing. It proves that the halos are not necessarily something inherent to Kellhus himself, because someone else was perceived to have them.