[Madness]

I think the male characters conform to basically male 'heroic' archetypes and exhibit just as many major faults as the females.
Maybe its easier to empathize with them and rationalize their actions, perhaps because Bakker is male and explains them better.
Maybe casting the females as archetypes and then trying show to their humanity beyond that was a mistake or a failure.  I'm not sure.

I think these are interesting thoughts...

Born as she was, she never really had a chance in her life, whatever she did, she would be fucked (pun intended). Since her mother wouldn't teach her reading stars, she could either sell her body or sell herself into slavery (which would be even worse).
So she became a whore. And here appears a problem. I guess a lot of men expect a typical whore to be more like Mimara - to hate her life, men who abuse her and be broken by what has happened to her. Esmi is different. She tries to find pleasure in what she does - and that's her way of getting even with the men. And while it's easy to feel sorry for poor abused Mimara, it's much harder to feel sorry for her mother.

As for why she stayed with Kellhus, even though Akka told her everything. Yes, you can say that she did it for power and wealth. But maybe, as Akka himself seems to believe, she did it, because Kellhus promised her that he will find her daughter.

Also, interesting thoughts. I do think "motherhood" and the idea of self-sacrifice is definitely going to come up somewhere in the rest of the series.

But this is getting off topic. Someone should make a "which character do you loathe the most" topic if you'd like to continue.

Sorry, Boss. You know I can't resist understand and discussing the Bakker/Gender crux.

[Hirtius/Pansa]

If I'm to track my investment in the series on an emotional level.  I would have to say that the prologue of TDTCB was an attention-getter.  I always found Kellhus first experiences with the outside world disturbingly similar to Shelley's Frankenstein's Monster when he first escapes and has intelligence but lack the awareness to cognitively understand the world, so his mode of description is always very weird.  I was hooked by the Battle of Kiyuth.  "Battle-prose" is something that only a select few genre writers can truly excel at, Kiyuth showed me that Bakker would be no slouch when it came to the intricacies of tactics and localized strategies.  But I was genuinely sold by the series when Conphas returns to Momemn for his triumph.  I, no hyperbole, had to reread that chapter three times because I didn't quite understand how Xerius had out maneuvered his nephew.  Every time now, I get chills as soon as Conphas stops being passive-aggressive and becomes supplicant before his uncle, like someone flipped a switch his demeanor.

But my all time favorite scene is actually something that seems really slight in comparison to the other set-piece moments in the books.  When Skaurus observes the tactical situation at Mengedda.  Saubon orders his longbowmen to basically take pot shots at the enemy commander and Grandees.  When Skaurus isn't fazed at all and just pulls out a knife and starts filing his nails, I remember I was reading TWP in the University Law Library and I guffawed so loudly at the audacity of this Sapatishah, that I was asked to leave premises. Lol  I miss Skaurus, he deserved more page-time, oh well.

[Madness]

Lol - that's a great story, Pansa. Hmm... I really do enjoy Conphas' return to Momemn; so many great moments in TDTCB.

[mrganondorf]

Lol - that's a great story, Pansa. Hmm... I really do enjoy Conphas' return to Momemn; so many great moments in TDTCB.

Bam!  That is awesome--everytime I reread I enjoy hearing Conphas twisting the world to fit the way he likes it.

+1 H/P for more Skaurus!!!

[The Sharmat]

Hating Esmenet for separating love from sex is like hating a chef for separating cooking from eating.

[The Great Scald]

When Skaurus isn't fazed at all and just pulls out a knife and starts filing his nails, I remember I was reading TWP in the University Law Library and I guffawed so loudly at the audacity of this Sapatishah, that I was asked to leave premises. Lol  I miss Skaurus, he deserved more page-time, oh well.

The Warrior-Prophet has a handful of funny moments in the middle of the grim seriousness - the narrators are all grim and gloomy and self-hating, but the omniscient POV has its moments of unintentional comedy.

I don't have the e-book at hand right now, but the omniscient passage of the Holy War's genocide in Shigek especially sticks out. It starts out describing how the Holy War spiraled out of control and started massacring civilians, and Bakker waxes poetically about bloodshed causing more bloodshed, goes into a grimdark litany about the raping and pillaging, and it all gets so over-the-top brutal that it starts being hilarious in a black-comedy way. Something along these lines:

"The Holy War descended into carnage and rape, for ever are all men deceived, and finally the Men of the Tusk began killing one another...General Phallus Majorus attempted to stop the madness, but they snapped him into tiny pieces."

I remember laughing at the deadpan ending of that part. Bakker's a lot better at unintentional jokes than intentional ones.

[themerchant]

Cnaiur makes me laugh a lot. Just viewed from outside the narrative. He's walking about thinking all this crazy-shit, basically everyone is terrified of him. He is having his inner monologue, while sneaking into Carksand, and realizes the only thing Kellhus needs his silence and gasps out loud. Thinking about how much of a fright that must have gave Saubon makes amuses me no end.

Here is Saubon finally about to get his only desire to be a king in his own right by his own hand, the prophet has confirmed it would happen... just need to get to the gate... then suddenly the most terrifying man you've ever met let's out this massive gasp of alarm(fuck i'm on an international flight and i forgot my baby gasp).  Then in a panic you ask him what's wrong and he just stares you down,says "nothing", and spits at your feet.

This whole bit is sandwiched in between him interacting with the Team Motto "Truth Shines" , starting off gently with just replying so do pigs teeth , to getting a bit more extreme and headbutting someone to death for saying it.

All the above is happening while Cnaiur is thinking "The Madness is lifting"

Aye Cnaiur your sanity is really coming on leaps and bounds.

[The Great Scald]

Here's the passage I was talking about:

Then, as though massacre possessed its own momentum, the Holy War’s occupation of Shigek degenerated into wanton carnage, though for what reason, no one knew. Perhaps it was the rumours of poisoned dates and pomegranates. Perhaps bloodshed simply begat more bloodshed. Perhaps their faith’s certainty was as terrifying as it was beautiful. What could be more true than destroying the false?

Word of the Inrithi atrocities spread among the Shigeki. Before the altar and in the streets the Priests of Fane claimed that the Solitary God punished them for welcoming the idolaters. The Shigeki began barricading themselves in their great, domed tabernacles. With their wives and children they gathered wailing on the soft carpets, crying out their sins, begging the God for forgiveness. The thunder of battering rams at the gates would be their only answer. Then the rush of iron-eyed swordsmen.

Every tabernacle across the North Bank witnessed a massacre. The Men of the Tusk hacked the screaming penitents into silence, then they kicked over the tripods, smashed the altars, tore the tapestries from the walls and the kneeling rugs from the floors. Anything carrying the taint of Fanimry they heaved into colossal fires. Beneath monstrous towers of smoke, dogs ate the heaped dead and licked blood from the broad steps.

None suffered more horribly than the Fanic priests. At night, the Inrithi used them for drunken sport, slicing open their bellies, leading them like mules by their own entrails. Some were blinded, some strangled, some were forced to watch their wives and daughters raped. Others were flayed alive. A great many were burned as witches.

In red-walled Nagogris, the maddened Men of the Tusk actually began slaughtering one another. Almost as soon as the Holy War had arrived at the city gates, the Shigeki governors remaining in the city sent emissaries to Ikurei Conphas, offering to surrender to the Empire in exchange for Imperial protection. Conphas immediately dispatched General Numemarius and a strong cohort of Kidruhil cavalry. Through some fatal mistake, however, the gates were thrown open to a large force of Thunyeri, who promptly began massacring and plundering the city. The Kidruhil attempted to intervene, and pitched battles broke out in the streets. When General Numemarius finally met with Yalgrota Sranchammer under flag of truce, the giant brained him.

[The Great Scald]

Cnaiur makes me laugh a lot. Just viewed from outside the narrative.

I agree. The Darkness That Comes Before has a lot more comic relief when you reread the Steppe chapters the second time around. Some of it is pitch-black comedy, darker than Sranc sperm, but it still gets a few laughs out of me.

(The part where Cnaiür and Kellhus are squabbling and arguing about military strategy while they're on the run, and then Serwë butts in by yelling "Shut up, Cnaiür, do what he tells you!" is pretty funny. Cnaiür is so astonished that he almost forgets to get angry, as if an inanimate object just yelled at him.)

[mrganondorf]

the final scenes between Cnaiur and Conphas are some of my favorites--Cnaiur losing it by degree and Conphas showing off an impenetrable egoism.  i've met people like Conphas and have wondered if some degree of violence could shatter their view of the world--Bakker made a plausible character survive with his illusion intact until the end?  i can't tell if Conphas is really seeing his world crumble or not, i could very well think that he thinks it's still going to end in his favor via miracle or something

[The Great Scald]

the final scenes between Cnaiur and Conphas are some of my favorites--Cnaiur losing it by degree and Conphas showing off an impenetrable egoism.  i've met people like Conphas and have wondered if some degree of violence could shatter their view of the world--Bakker made a plausible character survive with his illusion intact until the end?  i can't tell if Conphas is really seeing his world crumble or not, i could very well think that he thinks it's still going to end in his favor via miracle or something

Bakker's "pride is a defect from the womb" line does suggest that Conphas is a clinical sociopath from birth and can never have his ego shattered, no matter how many times Cnaiür ass-raped him. He's what criminal psychologists would call a pathological narcissist.

[Wilshire]

Oh I like that. Will have to remember that, it makes a lovely insult. "Pathological narcissist". That's just great

[mrganondorf]

the final scenes between Cnaiur and Conphas are some of my favorites--Cnaiur losing it by degree and Conphas showing off an impenetrable egoism.  i've met people like Conphas and have wondered if some degree of violence could shatter their view of the world--Bakker made a plausible character survive with his illusion intact until the end?  i can't tell if Conphas is really seeing his world crumble or not, i could very well think that he thinks it's still going to end in his favor via miracle or something

Bakker's "pride is a defect from the womb" line does suggest that Conphas is a clinical sociopath from birth and can never have his ego shattered, no matter how many times Cnaiür ass-raped him. He's what criminal psychologists would call a pathological narcissist.

it almost seemed like Kellhus snared Conphas in the pride/defect speech.  that would have been a really interesting turn of events.

then Kellhus moves south with an overwhelming force, there is no drama about taking Shimeh.  any odd implications in that?

[robizeratul]

My favorite scene, and in my mind the most terrifying scene in the books is with Kellhus talking to Cnaiur before meeting with the holy war. He says something like: 
 
"we will come to them from the darkness,we will be whatever we say we are" 
 
It's just simple and beautiful, an amazing scene.