[What Came Before]

Lol @ the Alpha male metaphor. Despite Serwe's ignorance - which seems important generally to the series, but specifically her ignorance - I always did appreciate her perspective. Serwe and Cnaiur provide a handy spectrum - those fully deluded by the Dunyain and those... albeit, rare individuals, who know enough to try and maintain their own agency in the presence of a Dunyain.

[What Came Before]

And it is after this that he decides the very un-Dunyain approach that he must seize total and absolute control of the Holy War: Kellhus the mighty gorilla roars his challenge and beats his chest

Interesting!

[Wilshire]

(prior to this, Cnaiur noted that the Holy War + Kiyuth would make it effortless for Kellhus to travel the entire Steppe to Shimeh if he so desired, then Kellhus makes a mistake after this in the chapter by thinking that Cnaiur has told him that the pilgrimmage routes to Shimeh are closed by the holy war, so it seems that the path Kellhus took was unexpected, and it wasn't until this quoted moment that TTT took a new form):

I don't recall that at all. Any chance you could point me to where he says that. I always thought that the Holy War made the path to shimeh impossible since the south would no longer accept pilgrims.

And it is after this that he decides the very un-Dunyain approach that he must seize total and absolute control of the Holy War: Kellhus the mighty gorilla roars his challenge and beats his chest (and this thought all falling after Cnaiur keeps mating by being the big gorilla).

Hmm, I don't see that perspective. One of the founding Dunyain principals is that you must control your circumstances or they control you. It is not unlikely, but rather inevitable, the he concludes that he will seize the Holy War.

Moenghus correctly predicts that he will not go straight to Shimeh and that he will have to seize control of the War, or at least that is what he tells us. I see nothing here that says this is where TTT changes, that Kellhus did anything unusual, or that Kellhus is nothing but a good Dunyain outcast.

[Garet Jax]

Does anyone happen to know when it is first mentioned the Kellhus either apprehends or starts using TTT?

The "hinges of destiny" quote from tDtCB has been bothering me recently and for some reason I see the timing of Kellhus' revelations about TTT being the missing piece in one of my never to be written, hot sauce induced, crackpot theories.

[Wilshire]

Does anyone happen to know when it is first mentioned the Kellhus either apprehends or starts using TTT?

The "hinges of destiny" quote from tDtCB has been bothering me recently and for some reason I see the timing of Kellhus' revelations about TTT being the missing piece in one of my never to be written, hot sauce induced, crackpot theories.

What the hell, you're holding out on us? Come now, lets have it. I'll not stand for this hording of crackpotery.

Sorry, but I'm at work without my books, and at my house I have no internet so I cannot give you an exact spot, but I'll give it a guess.

I though that the firs time Kellhus grasps TTT is as he is cut down from the tree and freed from the circumfix. If not there, then sometime close before that spot, around where he spends weeks in the Probability Trance trying to find a way out of the circumfixtion.

Barring that, to help narrow your search, he only sees the Thought after he is informed by one of his father's messengers about it, though I can't recall exactly when that is. Damn, looks like its  time for a re-read.

Also, can you post the whole quote you are referring to? I don't seem to recall that either.

[Garet Jax]

Does anyone happen to know when it is first mentioned the Kellhus either apprehends or starts using TTT?

The "hinges of destiny" quote from tDtCB has been bothering me recently and for some reason I see the timing of Kellhus' revelations about TTT being the missing piece in one of my never to be written, hot sauce induced, crackpot theories.

What the hell, you're holding out on us? Come now, lets have it. I'll not stand for this hording of crackpotery.

Sorry, but I'm at work without my books, and at my house I have no internet so I cannot give you an exact spot, but I'll give it a guess.

I though that the firs time Kellhus grasps TTT is as he is cut down from the tree and freed from the circumfix. If not there, then sometime close before that spot, around where he spends weeks in the Probability Trance trying to find a way out of the circumfixtion.

Barring that, to help narrow your search, he only sees the Thought after he is informed by one of his father's messengers about it, though I can't recall exactly when that is. Damn, looks like its  time for a re-read.

Also, can you post the whole quote you are referring to? I don't seem to recall that either.

(tDtCB - Chapter 3 - p. 76)

"...this was the place were the heavens inhabited the earth.  Sumna, the Hagerna, and the Junriuma were far more than geographical sites; they were bound up in the very purpose of history.  They were the hinges of destiny."

[Madness]

Does anyone happen to know when it is first mentioned the Kellhus either apprehends or starts using TTT?

The "hinges of destiny" quote from tDtCB has been bothering me recently and for some reason I see the timing of Kellhus' revelations about TTT being the missing piece in one of my never to be written, hot sauce induced, crackpot theories.

. . .

I though that the firs time Kellhus grasps TTT is as he is cut down from the tree and freed from the circumfix. If not there, then sometime close before that spot, around where he spends weeks in the Probability Trance trying to find a way out of the circumfixtion.

+1.

The "hinges of destiny" quote from tDtCB has been bothering me recently and for some reason I see the timing of Kellhus' revelations about TTT being the missing piece in one of my never to be written, hot sauce induced, crackpot theories.

What the hell, you're holding out on us? Come now, lets have it. I'll not stand for this hording of crackpotery.

Yeah! Cough it up, Jax. Share the Nerdanel!

[locke]

What if there are two Thousandfold Thoughts.  And Kellhus has been exploring one that is completely different from the one that Moenghus created. 

this would be especially delicious is the only reason that Kellhus came upon/created/seized the second TTT was because Moenghus alerted  him to it, so confirmation/selection bias led him to seize on and expand a TTT that was not the one Moenghus had been generating and exploring.

[Garet Jax]

Barring the 100's of posts that I have not read that probably explain most of what I am after... Here it is, as coherently and simply as I can put it.

Simple version:  tDtcB is essentially just that.  The events in the first book shape the "darkness" that moves all souls from that point on.

(all is italicized because I think there are several "darkness that comes before" at work)

Forgive me if this has been brought up before, or is too broad of an idea to be an actual theory.  I am in the middle of my re read (and currently at work) so I am still picking things up.  But once some more connections can be made, there might be some substance to it.

Long version: I need help...

The hot sauce definitely helps make my ideas seem more interesting before they are written out.

[Wilshire]

Well I can point out your problem right now: its too short. 


Your idea seems plenty unique. Run with it and see where it takes you (and us if you bring us along). Making wild theories out of half-proofs and guided  by the absence of information is what we do.

[Madness]

My interpretation of Garet's assertion is that the events that happened before the prologue have shaped the entire story, thus far.

We base our speculative assertions on the story as a semi-complete narrative, which began at the beginning (insofar as character's POVs may be withheld but not key elements of the narrative). Instead, events that we are not privy to, alter the stream of narrative concisely.

I'll take that as two for Dunyain Nostradamus.

[Wilshire]

Ah, that makes sense. The story did not begin at the beginning. Maybe thats the real power of the TTT. It lets you see into the past? Thats why we don't get Kellhus' POV because hes seen farther back than anyone else, not farther forward. Which makes sense a bit, because if you can see the beginning, and then follow the trance forward through the ages, you'd have far better predictive abilities than someone who is starting in the middle.

Even though the two prediction might be identical for a long time, eventually the one that started in the middle would become less accurate than the one that started at the beginning.
Its like finding an equation that describes a  set of data, and then taking a subset of that data and finding another equation that describes that. Locally, both are correct, and the equation specific to that region might even be more accurate. However, once you zoom out, that equation might make no sense at all.

A straight line fits through any 2 points, but it can't accurately describe a polynomial.

[Madness]

That is a fine example. Cultivating analogies is always informative, not to mention, fun! Lol.

Bakker's big on Narrative Occlusion and how what we don't know frames what we do. It is a nice concise theory.

Which is why I still want to dream that TSTSNBN is The First Apocalypse.

[locke]

That is a fine example. Cultivating analogies is always informative, not to mention, fun! Lol.

Bakker's big on Narrative Occlusion and how what we don't know frames what we do. It is a nice concise theory.

Which is why I still want to dream that TSTSNBN is The First Apocalypse.

aka, what comes after determines what comes before.

[mrganondorf]

@ Wilshire - I really like the idea that the Dunyain possessed the TTT way back when.  I can picture them running around the clock probability trance for 20 centuries to figure it all out.

@ Sharmat - Kellhus left the grotto with no new info, I think, because he always intended to return and also interrogate skin spies on his own, maybe?

Also, as far as Kellhus always assuming that he's right, I can only think of one exception to that--when he's up on the mountain with Akka, Esmi, and Serwe.  He's considering the skin spy when he sort of 'wakes up.'  When he's told that he had his eyes closed, Kellhus' internal monologue begins to consider the issue as troubling, but he's interrupted and the reader never knows if he returns to a self-audit.

@ Madness - Jesuschrist!  That the third trilogy should be the first apocalypse is fucking awesome!!!