[H]

Everything is possible in the chaos of the Apocalypse, though, it's not like anyone is going to hunt down Akka the Wizard anytime soon.

Indeed, I mean, what is left in the Three Seas to return to?

If Akka's aim is to be a "modern day Seswatha" I don't know that there is much left in in the former Empire.  I mean, I always hypothesized that the Great Ordeal robbing the Empire of it's strength was part of it's narrative role.  Now, it is clear why.  So, what's left?  No nobility, no military strength.

Zeüm has it's own troubles.  The Fanim are probably the best hope, really.  Perhaps that is the role of Meppa and so Mimara.  He "vision" is probably as close to a real prophet of the Solitary God as has ever existed (Fane included).

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

Indeed, I mean, what is left in the Three Seas to return to?

If Akka's aim is to be a "modern day Seswatha" I don't know that there is much left in in the former Empire.  I mean, I always hypothesized that the Great Ordeal robbing the Empire of it's strength was part of it's narrative role.  Now, it is clear why.  So, what's left?  No nobility, no military strength.

Zeüm has it's own troubles.  The Fanim are probably the best hope, really.  Perhaps that is the role of Meppa and so Mimara.  He "vision" is probably as close to a real prophet of the Solitary God as has ever existed (Fane included).

There's still a fair chance that they'll return, find what people they can to join them (before the No-God gets to them) and then move everyone to a safer place. Maybe Zeüm, assuming someone can handle the Malowebi demon (whose only target was the royal family - granted, this is likely going to result in many casualties among the Mbimayu as they try to stop him).

That's a good point about the Great Ordeal. Always a risk when you take almost all of the capable warriors and mages available along with you (not that Kellhus cared). This is more of a problem in the case of the sorcerers/witches, as it seemed like Kellhus really took almost every single one of them along with him on the Ordeal (presumably even not "almost" in the case of the witches, I doubt there were any left behind).
I figure that the only sorcerers potentially left by now in the Three Seas (not counting the ones who might have escaped the "salt and butchery" at the end) would be either elderly ones no longer physically capable of travelling with the Ordeal (such as say, Nautzera, if he's still alive?) or very young, very unexperienced (likely not even fully trained) ones.
As armies go, they are very depleted on that regard, but then I remembered Nurbanu JoeZe led a contingent of Jekki in the Ordeal. I'd guess that said contingent wasn't particularly large, so maybe going to Jekhia wouldn't be a waste of time? (again, geography, etc., I might be spouting out complete nonsense)

I still wonder how they're going to meet up with Meppa (or Meppa with them). That will be an interesting meeting. Usually a Cishaurim would not even think of working with the likes of Akka and co. (not to mention the woman who directly attacked him with a Chorae...), but these are desperate circumstances, after all.
I can't even remember where Meppa was the last time we saw him...was it Iothiah? Could Kellhus have "stashed" him somewhere else before he went to get Esmenet and Kelmomas at Momemn?

[profgrape]

Indeed, I mean, what is left in the Three Seas to return to?

If Akka's aim is to be a "modern day Seswatha" I don't know that there is much left in in the former Empire.  I mean, I always hypothesized that the Great Ordeal robbing the Empire of it's strength was part of it's narrative role.  Now, it is clear why.  So, what's left?  No nobility, no military strength.

Zeüm has it's own troubles.  The Fanim are probably the best hope, really.  Perhaps that is the role of Meppa and so Mimara.  He "vision" is probably as close to a real prophet of the Solitary God as has ever existed (Fane included).

There's still a fair chance that they'll return, find what people they can to join them (before the No-God gets to them) and then move everyone to a safer place. Maybe Zeüm, assuming someone can handle the Malowebi demon (whose only target was the royal family - granted, this is likely going to result in many casualties among the Mbimayu as they try to stop him).

That's a good point about the Great Ordeal. Always a risk when you take almost all of the capable warriors and mages available along with you (not that Kellhus cared). This is more of a problem in the case of the sorcerers/witches, as it seemed like Kellhus really took almost every single one of them along with him on the Ordeal (presumably even not "almost" in the case of the witches, I doubt there were any left behind).
I figure that the only sorcerers potentially left by now in the Three Seas (not counting the ones who might have escaped the "salt and butchery" at the end) would be either elderly ones no longer physically capable of travelling with the Ordeal (such as say, Nautzera, if he's still alive?) or very young, very unexperienced (likely not even fully trained) ones.
As armies go, they are very depleted on that regard, but then I remembered Nurbanu JoeZe led a contingent of Jekki in the Ordeal. I'd guess that said contingent wasn't particularly large, so maybe going to Jekhia wouldn't be a waste of time? (again, geography, etc., I might be spouting out complete nonsense)

I still wonder how they're going to meet up with Meppa (or Meppa with them). That will be an interesting meeting. Usually a Cishaurim would not even think of working with the likes of Akka and co. (not to mention the woman who directly attacked him with a Chorae...), but these are desperate circumstances, after all.
I can't even remember where Meppa was the last time we saw him...was it Iothiah? Could Kellhus have "stashed" him somewhere else before he went to get Esmenet and Kelmomas at Momemn?

Meppa was last seen in Fanayal's tent outside of Momemn.  Which shortly thereafter was quaked and flooded.  But I agree that he still has a part in this story and really like the idea of him being a latter-day Fane. 

On the Malowebi-demon causing trouble for Zeum, I'm not so sure it's going to happen.  For one, it's a really long way from Momemn to Zeum -- thousands of miles overland through inhospitable territory or a fairly long sea voyage.  And for two, who's to say whether the Cant binding head to body would last beyond Kellhus' death -- it seemed like Iyokus' death effectively freed the Ciphrang he'd summoned at Golgatterath. 

That's not to say all will be well in Zeum.  The NG's presence means that Kellhus was right about the threat from Golgatterath.  And that their Successor-Prince is either dead or in great peril.  I'm actually curious whether the NG's advent would cause Zeum to send ships to try and rescue Zsoronga?  Could be how Akka and co make it to Zeum.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

Meppa was last seen in Fanayal's tent outside of Momemn.  Which shortly thereafter was quaked and flooded.  But I agree that he still has a part in this story and really like the idea of him being a latter-day Fane.

Good to know I was completely mistaken. But yes, Meppa has to return at some point. Him being Fane 2.0 is just icing on the cake, there's still so much that could be done with him.

On the Malowebi-demon causing trouble for Zeum, I'm not so sure it's going to happen.  For one, it's a really long way from Momemn to Zeum -- thousands of miles overland through inhospitable territory or a fairly long sea voyage.  And for two, who's to say whether the Cant binding head to body would last beyond Kellhus' death -- it seemed like Iyokus' death effectively freed the Ciphrang he'd summoned at Golgatterath. 

That's not to say all will be well in Zeum.  The NG's presence means that Kellhus was right about the threat from Golgatterath.  And that their Successor-Prince is either dead or in great peril.  I'm actually curious whether the NG's advent would cause Zeum to send ships to try and rescue Zsoronga?  Could be how Akka and co make it to Zeum.

While I agree on that something could happen to the Malowebi demon before he even got to Zeüm (that journey will indeed last a while - unless Kellhus made it so that he could travel faster than a human or something), I don't think Kellhus' death effectively nullifies him. Malowebi's own severed head still retained awareness after Kellhus' death, so who's to say that the demon wouldn't remain active too?
On Iyokus and the Ciphrang, it was not as much Iyokus' death freeing the Ciphrang as it was the weakened barrier between the Outside and the real world (due to Golgotterath being a topos) leading to the Ciphrang escaping Iyokus' control and killing him (and now I sound like Bakker with the whole "X was not as much Y as it was Z" thing...).

No place is safe, but I think Zeüm may remain out of immediate peril (from the No-God, not counting the demon here) for quite a while. The No-God is going to target the Three Seas first.
Zsoronga is dead, and I think that Zsoronga's father was fully aware this was a definite possibility when he surrendered him as a hostage and then sent an emissary to deal with Kellhus' most outspoken enemy. I doubt anyone is going to come back for him, he was the sacrifice the Satakhan had to make (and he does have at least one other son to succeed him, Malowebi refers to Zsoronga as "the Satakhan's eldest son" at some point in TUC).

[TheCulminatingApe]

The idea of spontaneously gaining new powers in times of stress is more in line with the Psukhe.  Although now that I think about it, Akka stumbling on the Psukhe sounds really cool... :-)

That would be great

Wouldn't they want to head someplace where they could at least mount some sort of resistance? 

Instead of the TS, they might leave Atrithau, head south, skirt west of the Sea of Jorua and then cross the unnamed tributary into High Holy Zeum!

Zeum would be the obvious candidate for any resistance on a large scale, as it is the likely the only place with any significant organisational structure left.  Also, I want to to see Zeum

While I agree on that something could happen to the Malowebi demon before he even got to Zeüm (that journey will indeed last a while - unless Kellhus made it so that he could travel faster than a human or something), I don't think Kellhus' death effectively nullifies him. Malowebi's own severed head still retained awareness after Kellhus' death, so who's to say that the demon wouldn't remain active too?

The demon was presumably sent for a reason, which must have been something other than simple revenge.  I doubt Kellhus would be that bothered by the Satakhan breaking a treaty, when the Ordeal is within striking distance of Golgotterath.

Just a hunch, but I think there is something significant in Zeum

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

Zeum would be the obvious candidate for any resistance on a large scale, as it is the likely the only place with any significant organisational structure left.  Also, I want to to see Zeum

We all want to, and fortunately odds are good that we're going to get our wish.

The demon was presumably sent for a reason, which must have been something other than simple revenge.  I doubt Kellhus would be that bothered by the Satakhan breaking a treaty, when the Ordeal is within striking distance of Golgotterath.

Just a hunch, but I think there is something significant in Zeum

I could see Kellhus doing it just for revenge, "decapitating" Zeüm by getting the whole royal family killed. He still went back to kill Fanayal and Psatma Nannaferi, so why not the Satakhan and his family as well? I might be in the minority here, of course.

Something like sorcerous secrets, is that what you were thinking of?

[H]

I could see Kellhus doing it just for revenge, "decapitating" Zeüm by getting the whole royal family killed. He still went back to kill Fanayal and Psatma Nannaferi, so why not the Satakhan and his family as well? I might be in the minority here, of course.

Basically all the "old powers" in Eärwa are dead.  The Great Ordeal removed all the nobility from the Three Seas.  Fanayal dies at the head of the Fanim.  And so Kellhus orders the killing of the power that be in Zeüm.  It's a "whole new" world out there now.

[MSJ]

Concerning demon Malowebi, Kellhus specifically told him to end the ruler of Zeum's line (family). Nothing more, nothing less. Unless he can communicate by some other means, I don't see demon Malowebi doing anymore than Kellhus bid. After all, thats how all of the Ciphrang Ioyukus summoned behaved. They follow orders to a T, and because they want released back to the Outside. They hate being in the World.

[profgrape]

Concerning demon Malowebi, Kellhus specifically told him to end the ruler of Zeum's line (family). Nothing more, nothing less. Unless he can communicate by some other means, I don't see demon Malowebi doing anymore than Kellhus bid. After all, thats how all of the Ciphrang Ioyukus summoned behaved. They follow orders to a T, and because they want released back to the Outside. They hate being in the World.

Random question: is Likaro in the line of Nganka'kull?  Or are cousins exempt?  Because if not, "curse Likaro" is going to take on a whole new meaning.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

Basically all the "old powers" in Eärwa are dead.  The Great Ordeal removed all the nobility from the Three Seas.  Fanayal dies at the head of the Fanim.  And so Kellhus orders the killing of the power that be in Zeüm.  It's a "whole new" world out there now.

Very good point.

Concerning demon Malowebi, Kellhus specifically told him to end the ruler of Zeum's line (family). Nothing more, nothing less. Unless he can communicate by some other means, I don't see demon Malowebi doing anymore than Kellhus bid. After all, thats how all of the Ciphrang Ioyukus summoned behaved. They follow orders to a T, and because they want released back to the Outside. They hate being in the World.

Yes, but the Mbimayu are like the Zeümi Imperial Saik. They will not just stand by and let the royal family get slaughtered. That's why I think their numbers will take quite a hit as well.

Random question: is Likaro in the line of Nganka'kull?  Or are cousins exempt?  Because if not, "curse Likaro" is going to take on a whole new meaning.

Now, that is an interesting question. I remember Likaro and Malowebi being referred to as cousins of Nganka'kull as well, and I think we have several options here:
-"cousins" is used as a term of respect or something here, like Calmemunis calling Xerius "uncle" in TDTCB, and is therefore not literal;
-you can interpret "the line of Nganka'kull" as the man himself and his descendants, which would mean Likaro will be fine unless he interferes;
-"the line of Nganka'kull" means "every single person related to Nganka'kull", which is bad news for Likaro.

[TheCulminatingApe]

I could see Kellhus doing it just for revenge, "decapitating" Zeüm by getting the whole royal family killed. He still went back to kill Fanayal and Psatma Nannaferi, so why not the Satakhan and his family as well? I might be in the minority here, of course.

Seems less of a direct threat.  Malowebi was just observing as I recall.

[TheCulminatingApe]

Concerning demon Malowebi, Kellhus specifically told him to end the ruler of Zeum's line (family). Nothing more, nothing less. Unless he can communicate by some other means, I don't see demon Malowebi doing anymore than Kellhus bid. After all, thats how all of the Ciphrang Ioyukus summoned behaved. They follow orders to a T, and because they want released back to the Outside. They hate being in the World.

Random question: is Likaro in the line of Nganka'kull?  Or are cousins exempt?  Because if not, "curse Likaro" is going to take on a whole new meaning.

I'd take the line of Nganka'kull as people descended from him (kids and grandkids) - i.e. there's a line back.  So if the demon follows instructions to the letter, the whole family wouldn't necessarily get killed.  Zsoronga might in trouble though if he survives the Ordeal.

We are assuming that the line of Nganka'kull doesn't have some specific in-world meaning

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

Seems less of a direct threat.  Malowebi was just observing as I recall.

Sure, but the Satakhan still sent Malowebi to Fanayal after he'd made a treaty with Kellhus and sent his own son to the Ordeal as a hostage. Kellhus does have a point here. A less direct threat is still a threat.

I'd take the line of Nganka'kull as people descended from him (kids and grandkids) - i.e. there's a line back.  So if the demon follows instructions to the letter, the whole family wouldn't necessarily get killed.  Zsoronga might in trouble though if he survives the Ordeal.

We are assuming that the line of Nganka'kull doesn't have some specific in-world meaning

I'd say the same, but who knows what Kellhus actually meant by those words. He might have meant the looser interpretation, that is "everyone in Nganka'kull's family".
Nitpicking/speculating, I know, but I'm assuming Nganka'kull might not even have any grandchildren if Zsoronga was his eldest son and he was around 16 years old during TAE. Well, unless he has daughters that are older than Zsoronga who have kids of their own. We just don't know. Zsoronga never mentions any of his relatives besides his father (and his mother in a throwaway line), so he could have many siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. we don't even know about.

Am I the only one who thinks Zsoronga is dead? Seriously, several people mentioned him as having died in TUC. I'm not imagining things here, right? Kellhus strung up Proyas in a way that wouldn't result in (immediate) death, not so much in Zsoronga's case. Pretty sure he's dead, unless something very unexpected (that we don't know about) happened.

It could have an in-universe more specific meaning, but, at least for now, we don't have any reason to assume so.

[TheCulminatingApe]

Just a hunch, but I think there is something significant in Zeum

Something like sorcerous secrets, is that what you were thinking of?

Not sure really.

We have Domyot, the capital of Zeum, which is the Black Iron City (and built close to a Non-Man Mansion)
We have the Black Iron Seat of Ishterebinth, created when a set of gates were blasted with the Sun Lance.
We have the No God with its Sarcophagus, sometimes described as being of black iron.

Is this just a coincidence?

Out of world, we have the "Black Iron Prison" of Philip K Dick, which as I understand it is a description of the material world and the systems which prevent people going beyond it, to something more spiritual.  I've never read anything by Dick, so I might be barking up the wrong tree, but it does sound quite Consulty to me.

[TheCulminatingApe]

Am I the only one who thinks Zsoronga is dead? Seriously, several people mentioned him as having died in TUC. I'm not imagining things here, right? Kellhus strung up Proyas in a way that wouldn't result in (immediate) death, not so much in Zsoronga's case. Pretty sure he's dead, unless something very unexpected (that we don't know about) happened.

I forgot all about that