[ThoughtsOfThelli]

What Wilshire said, MSJ, this alternate timeline would only diverge from canon around the time of the Last Whelming (or immediately before). So Dagliash has already happened as in canon. Feel free to create your own thread about the ramifications of the nuke going off without Kellhus there, though, there is some discussion to be had there too.

Sorry, both of you.

Anyhow, I don't see how events would be any better with Kellhus already dead. Serwa wouldn't get past Mek and the Soggomatic Gate. At this point no one is close to Kellhus in terms of power. The Ordeal fails and fails rather more quickly.

It might depend on what happens regarding the Mutilated's reaction to Kellhus' death, whether and how they change their strategy and how long it takes them to do so.
Wilshire and I seem to be in agreement that if Kayûtas, Serwa or both of them tried to take control of the Ordeal, they'd be rather effective as leaders (though yes, none of them is as powerful as Kellhus, and there would still be significant casualties). Might be a matter of how quickly they'd manage to get the Ordeal under control in the fallout from Kellhus' death versus the impact of said death on the Mutilated's plans (as I mentioned above).

[MSJ]

It might depend on what happens regarding the Mutilated's reaction to Kellhus' death, whether and how they change their strategy and how long it takes them to do so.
Wilshire and I seem to be in agreement that if Kayûtas, Serwa or both of them tried to take control of the Ordeal, they'd be rather effective as leaders (though yes, none of them is as powerful as Kellhus, and there would still be significant casualties). Might be a matter of how quickly they'd manage to get the Ordeal under control in the fallout from Kellhus' death versus the impact of said death on the Mutilated's plans (as I mentioned above)

I'm not well versed in military tactics. But, in this setting, everything hinges on Kellhus getting in the GR. No Kellhus, what would Serwa or Kayutas do (while I agree both would be competent leaders). As you remember, the Yamulati Sranc were just entering the fray when resumption happens. No resumption, and pure numbers destroy the Ordeal to a man. Kellhus knew this. Knew the Only way to win was take the head off the snake.

[Wilshire]

It might depend on what happens regarding the Mutilated's reaction to Kellhus' death,
whether and how they change their strategy and how long it takes them to do so.

What do the Mutilated do if Kellhus dies before the final battle?
They think that Kellhus is the insertant. Its possible they just lock the front door and wait for them to either die of starvation or just go home lol. Without contesting the steps and the CWOL, the entire army has to walk over a tiny bridge and fight the dragon, and do it while an army of sranc cut off a retreat.

They actually might make a plan to capture the remaining Anasurimbors - from Kayutas and Serwa to Esmenet and even Mimara. After all, if they thought it had something to do with that family line, they'd probably want to be really careful not to accidentally kill one.

If Kayûtas, Serwa or both of them tried to take control of the Ordeal

The Ordeal is on a pretty tight timeline here. The Scylvendi are coming over the Mountains to the south and east, the New Sranc from the West. They really only have about 12 hours to get people together and Marching.

Either they do that successfully by stomping out mutiny, or they fail and TGO dies where it stands.

So assuming they can succeed, what happens?
TGO might splinter, some might say 'fuck it' and try to go home (I suspect they'd be allowed to), some would certainly die in a power struggle (opposing factions, all that), but at some point what remaining would be stitched together into a cohesive force to March against Golgotterath.

Might be a matter of how quickly they'd manage to get the Ordeal under control in the fallout from Kellhus' death versus the impact of said death on the Mutilated's plans (as I mentioned above).

Hey maybe the rescue Proyas and string up Sorweel in his place? They would be in great need of an Exalt General, so maybe they'd prop him up as the leader and somehow blame everything prior on Sorweel. TGO seems to do well with scapegoats.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

I'm not well versed in military tactics. But, in this setting, everything hinges on Kellhus getting in the GR. No Kellhus, what would Serwa or Kayutas do (while I agree both would be competent leaders). As you remember, the Yamulati Sranc were just entering the fray when resumption happens. No resumption, and pure numbers destroy the Ordeal to a man. Kellhus knew this. Knew the Only way to win was take the head off the snake.

Neither am I, in any way. Just speculating here.
You would still have a pyrrhic victory in that case: Ordeal destroyed, but no Resumption and no Second Apocalypse.

What do the Mutilated do if Kellhus dies before the final battle?
They think that Kellhus is the insertant. Its possible they just lock the front door and wait for them to either die of starvation or just go home lol. Without contesting the steps and the CWOL, the entire army has to walk over a tiny bridge and fight the dragon, and do it while an army of sranc cut off a retreat.

They actually might make a plan to capture the remaining Anasurimbors - from Kayutas and Serwa to Esmenet and even Mimara. After all, if they thought it had something to do with that family line, they'd probably want to be really careful not to accidentally kill one.

The Ordeal would still be facing a very difficult situation, true.
Definitely agree about the remaining Anasûrimbors. After all, Tsuör the skin-spy was following Aurang's orders, and we know the Mutilated were in charge, so... Without Kellhus, they couldn't "waste" the rest of the family after their first and best guess about the Celmomian prophecy proved wrong.

The Ordeal is on a pretty tight timeline here. The Scylvendi are coming over the Mountains to the south and east, the New Sranc from the West. They really only have about 12 hours to get people together and Marching.

Either they do that successfully by stomping out mutiny, or they fail and TGO dies where it stands.

So assuming they can succeed, what happens?
TGO might splinter, some might say 'fuck it' and try to go home (I suspect they'd be allowed to), some would certainly die in a power struggle (opposing factions, all that), but at some point what remaining would be stitched together into a cohesive force to March against Golgotterath.

That's true.

Would Kayûtas and Serwa allow some of the Ordealman to leave after they took control? I'm not sure, given what happened regarding desertions earlier with the Meat madness.
I agree. Since they would definitely be very aware of how they were pressed for time, the quickest way to get the Ordeal marching would be to get rid of anyone who opposed their leadership as fast as possible.

Hey maybe the rescue Proyas and string up Sorweel in his place? They would be in great need of an Exalt General, so maybe they'd prop him up as the leader and somehow blame everything prior on Sorweel. TGO seems to do well with scapegoats.

Would definitely not put that past them, though Proyas is not in much of a state to lead anymore even if they release him right after Kellhus dies.
I agree that Sorweel would be blamed, but I doubt he'd live long enough to be strung up like Proyas. I think he'd get incinerated by Serwa (which he did see happening via his White-Luck) the second Kellhus got turned to salt.

[MSJ]

Neither am I, in any way. Just speculating here.
You would still have a pyrrhic victory in that case: Ordeal destroyed, but no Resumption and no Second Apocalypse.

Man, this is a tough nut to crack. I'd say that Kayutas would bound, gag and put him in a cage. I think that Serwa and Kayutas knew Kelmommas was a liability, hell there might be something in the text about it. If Kelmommas is caught and the Ordeal destroyed, at least the Second Apocalypse doesn't occur. Serwa might have been able to take out Mek......maybe. I have no clue how much sorcery The Mutilated knew.

Here's the #1 problem. If they get past the dragon, how many Damn Skin Spies are in the Ark? Id say a whole lot, and they would pose a huge problem. I just think numbers in the end overwhelm the Ordeal. But, maybe Akka and Serwa pick up as many of the family as possible and no resumption. I truly believe Serwa would've killed Kelmommas. She don't play.

[Wilshire]

Geez. That's a horror movie right there. The nightmare halls of Golgotterath filled with Skin-Spies wearing gear they take off the fallen.

That would be tough to get through. Without Kellhus Magic from the dragon up to the golden room, there might not be much of a chance depending on how many of those damn skin-spies there are.

[MSJ]

Exactly. Its a huge unknown. And we all know the abilities of a SS. They can make you think them friend, then put a sword in your back.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

Man, this is a tough nut to crack. I'd say that Kayutas would bound, gag and put him in a cage. I think that Serwa and Kayutas knew Kelmommas was a liability, hell there might be something in the text about it. If Kelmommas is caught and the Ordeal destroyed, at least the Second Apocalypse doesn't occur. Serwa might have been able to take out Mek......maybe. I have no clue how much sorcery The Mutilated knew.

Here's the #1 problem. If they get past the dragon, how many Damn Skin Spies are in the Ark? Id say a whole lot, and they would pose a huge problem. I just think numbers in the end overwhelm the Ordeal. But, maybe Akka and Serwa pick up as many of the family as possible and no resumption. I truly believe Serwa would've killed Kelmommas. She don't play.

I absolutely agree about Kelmomas. Serwa is very efficient - I think her list would go something like 1) kill Sorweel, 2) get control of the Ordeal as quickly as possible, 3) immediately kill Kelmomas.

I think Serwa has more than a slight chance against Mekeritrig, especially if helped by, say, Saccarees.

Hundreds, I would presume. One of the greatest obstacles in this scenario, to be sure.

Geez. That's a horror movie right there. The nightmare halls of Golgotterath filled with Skin-Spies wearing gear they take off the fallen.

That would be tough to get through. Without Kellhus Magic from the dragon up to the golden room, there might not be much of a chance depending on how many of those damn skin-spies there are.

It's a horror movie that I would pay to watch, actually. (seriously, imagine that, it's like something out of Alien or Aliens, amazing)
Aside from that tangent... I started to think about this, and while this may be crackpot in addition to the what-if, they would have a better chance if Akka and Mimara also share the qirri around in this scenario. Give qirri to Serwa like in canon, and to as many of the most powerful sorcerers and witches as they can. Considering how that enhanced her abilities in canon (even when covered in ulcerating burns that would leave a normal human dead or in absolute agony and unable to move), I'm sure it would boost their chances considerably (even if the others are not half-Dûnyain).

[TaoHorror]

Blitz attack would be their only chance to win which would incur heavy losses, but don't see any path avoiding heavy losses, so pour in like an army of ants and kill everything you see and destroy as much as possible, fill the halls with the crackle of sorcery, butcher anything you get your hands on ... and then there's the IF - stare into it and fall or destroy it before you realize what it is ... so many paths ...

[Walter]

I think, absent Kellhus, his lieutenants and descendants can still reign in the Ordeal enough to keep it on track.

Sorweel kills Kellhus, Serwa kills Sorweel.  All else is as cannon.  I don't think Serwa can kill Kelmomas, since he will be the No-God, but she doesn't have to.  Story can proceed if she inherits Kellhus's destraction, doesn't have time for little child.

Battle opens as per cannon, with Ordeal overcoming the walls.

When the Fisherman strikes down Serwa, the Ordeal no longer has Kellhus to teleport up, meaning he snipes mages with impunity.  The big question now is whether Serwa, while under fire, can manage a teleport to get up there and kill the Fisherman.

I tend to think she can.  She pulls this off, kills the Fisherman, is killed by Aurang, who takes up the Spear.  The Ordeal is driven forth from Golgotterath and massacred by the backup Horde's arrival.  Kelmomas is seized by skin spies and born to the Sarcophagus, and Resumption.

Only major impacts are that one of the Mutilated does not die, nor does Aurang.  There is also no escape for Akka and his family.  A much darker timeline.