[Jabberwock03]

Or did I understood you wrong?

My issue is with the "read-only" part of your views. What I mean by a connection is a possibility of interaction that goes invariably both ways.

For it to be different, something needs to not be a part of the system of reality and at the same time influence that system, which is a paradox.

What I meant is that the string connecting the outside and the reality is so weak that you can observe it, but can't do much.
No magic/gods involvement for anarcane weak connection, but still a way to watch your damnation through the IF/be watched by the gods.

[H]

That's pretty much what I said I think:

- Outside exist everywhere
- Everyone is damned
- But the connection is powerful on Earwa so you can do magic and gods can do some stuff
- And it's weak on Progenitors world so you can just watch your damnation through the IF and gods know you're here but can't do shit to you

Or did I understood you wrong?

Yeah, the Inverse Fire is something of a window a mirror that reflects back your soul through the lens of the Outside.  In fact, thinking about it now, I don't think the Inverse Fire actually shows you the Outside.  Rather, it shows you the view of yourself from the perspective of an Outside observer.

In other words, you'd never see any entities from the Outside through the Inverse Fire, because you are only viewing yourself from the perspective of the Outside.  In this sense, I think the idea of it as being some of "read-only" is apt.  The Inverse Fire allows only a perspective/frame change, not an actual view of the Outside itself, or anything in it (aside your own soul).

[SmilerLoki]

What I meant is that the string connecting the outside and the reality is so weak that you can observe it, but can't do much.
No magic/gods involvement for anarcane weak connection, but still a way to watch your damnation through the IF/be watched by the gods.

I do not feel we can make this leap of logic with the information available. The connection exists and can be accessed. It is accessed by the Inverse Fire. Presuming that there is no potential way to use that connection for something else, like influencing the Outside in some way, is much more than I'm comfortable doing.

Granted, it might have been the case for the Progenitors, in the sense that all they could achieve was looking into the Outside. But in my eyes it's a technological limitation that says nothing about the actual scope of possibilities.

[Jabberwock03]

What I meant is that the string connecting the outside and the reality is so weak that you can observe it, but can't do much.
No magic/gods involvement for anarcane weak connection, but still a way to watch your damnation through the IF/be watched by the gods.

I do not feel we can make this leap of logic with the information available. The connection exists and can be accessed. It is accessed by the Inverse Fire. Presuming that there is no potential way to use that connection for something else, like influencing the Outside in some way, is much more than I'm comfortable doing.

Granted, it might have been the case for the Progenitors, in the sense that all they could achieve was looking into the Outside. But in my eyes it's a technological limitation that says nothing about the actual scope of possibilities.

Well, we know that you can't do magic on Anarcane ground and that the world of the Progenitors is anarcane. And we know that the Progenitors weren't aware of anything metaphysical before the IF.
The gods flavor their souls-snacks with worshiping, so I think if they could have made the Progenitors worship them by showing up as they do in Earwa, they would have.

So I think it's safe to say that the interaction between the outside and the reality on the Progenitors world is not that great. And it would make sens that the Progenitors would have thought about all possible way of doing something about the outside from home, before sending a big ship with living weapon to rampage planets hoping to close the outside.

Yes, it's just assumptions, but it find it most likely.

[SmilerLoki]

Yes, it's just assumptions, but it find it most likely.

No, no, I find your logic quite sound, I just wanted to outline some things I consider important, which was made possible by your posts.

I actually have a completely different theory about why the Gods don't, presumably (it is my presumption, too), appear to the Progenitors and quite possibly to the Nonmen, also. At least not in the capacity they appear to Men in. I think the Gods of TSA are exclusively the Gods of Men, and so have no love for anyone else.

That's why I'm a tremendous fan of everything that happened in Ishterebinth, it offers so much insight into Nonmen religion or what passes for it.

[EDIT] Oh, and that would, incidentally, be why Earwa is the Promised World.

[Jabberwock03]

Yes, it's just assumptions, but it find it most likely.

No, no, I find your logic quite sound, I just wanted to outline some things I consider important, which was made possible by your posts.

I actually have I completely different theory about why the Gods don't, presumably (it is my presumption, too), appear to the Progenitors and quite possibly to Nonmen, also. At least not in the same capacity as they appear to Men in. I think the Gods of TSA are exclusively the Gods of Men, and so have no love for anyone else.

That's why I'm a tremendous fan of everything that happened in Ishterebinth, it offers so much insight into Nonmen religion or what passes for it.

Never thought of that, I just imagined that the nonmen said fuck off when they discovered their are gods (and as I said that the Progenitors just couldn't even know they exist) while the humans start to worship them because... well... because they are gods.

[H]

Never thought of that, I just imagined that the nonmen said fuck off when they discovered their are gods (and as I said that the Progenitors just couldn't even know they exist) while the humans start to worship them because... well... because they are gods.

Well, there are hints that the Nonmen worshiped them as principles, probably until men "elevated" them to gods.  For all we know, that might mean the 100 were different then, to some degree or other.  Maybe less intercessional?

[SmilerLoki]

Well, there are hints that the Nonmen worshiped them as principles, probably until men "elevated" them to gods.  For all we know, that might mean the 100 were different then, to some degree or other.  Maybe less intercessional?

I don't think the Nonmen worshiped the Gods. I think the Nonmen were aware of their objective existence. It wasn't religion, it was personification as an artistic trope.

[Wilshire]

No, we're not saying all souls don't end up in the Outside. What were saying is, and this completely wipes out your theory, is that Earwa is the only planet with a connection to the Outside.

By the Glossary definition the Inverse Fire is a connection to the Outside stated to work not only on Earwa, but on other planets and in space, on the Ark while it was in transit. How do you reconcile it with your view of the Outside?

I also don't get how souls from other worlds (the worlds not connected to the Outside as presented in your theory) end up in the Outside. If they end up there, then the connection exists by definition.

I'm with SL on this. To me, the idea of anarcane ground is largely irrelevent - it just stops people from manipulating the world using their voice. I seriously doubt that it does anything to Ajokli and his ilk - though strangely the No-God avoided it, so, not sure how that fits in.

In other words, you'd never see any entities from the Outside through the Inverse Fire, because you are only viewing yourself from the perspective of the Outside. 

Mirror, maybe, but this bit doesn't make sense. Don't we know for a fact that people see all kinds of entities in the outside? What kind of mirror shows reflections of thousands that aren't standing in front of it?

[H]

Well, there are hints that the Nonmen worshiped them as principles, probably until men "elevated" them to gods.  For all we know, that might mean the 100 were different then, to some degree or other.  Maybe less intercessional?

I don't think the Nonmen worshiped the Gods. I think the Nonmen were aware of their objective existence. It wasn't religion, it was personification as an artistic trope.

Well, I think it is a little more than just an artistic trope.  I just don't think they'd refer to them as "Principles" in that case.  While they didn't worship them as gods, they were seemingly still important.  Perhaps the 100 "Principles" were sort of like the 10 Commandments, not in the sense of laws, but rather, conceptions of acceptable (and unacceptable) behavior?

So, you don't worship the Fertility Principle, but if you want to be fertile, you had better know what it wants/demands/exacts.

[H]

I'm with SL on this. To me, the idea of anarcane ground is largely irrelevent - it just stops people from manipulating the world using their voice. I seriously doubt that it does anything to Ajokli and his ilk - though strangely the No-God avoided it, so, not sure how that fits in.

Well, it is possible that, as my pet theory that Anarcane ground was a "hole" in the No-God's vision hypothesized, so it is also a hole in the vision of the 100.  Just like things you don't see, they are still there, but not capable of being attended to.  This might be why the gods are so much more active on Eärwa, rather than anywhere else.  It's a place of their maximal perception.

In other words, you'd never see any entities from the Outside through the Inverse Fire, because you are only viewing yourself from the perspective of the Outside. 

Mirror, maybe, but this bit doesn't make sense. Don't we know for a fact that people see all kinds of entities in the outside? What kind of mirror shows reflections of thousands that aren't standing in front of it?

But do they see them in the Inverse Fire?

Does the Inverse Fire show everyone thousands?

Serious questions, I am old and don't recall.

[SmilerLoki]

Well, I think it is a little more than just an artistic trope.  I just don't think they'd refer to them as "Principles" in that case.

But that's just the definition of personification:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

Personification is the related attribution of human form and characteristics to abstract concepts such as nations, emotions and natural forces like seasons and the weather.

[Wilshire]

Oops, clicked the 'modify' button on a post other than my. Sorry H!

For clarity, this is what I meant to add to the bottom of my last post:

That's pretty much what I said I think:

- Outside exist everywhere
- Everyone is damned
- But the connection is powerful on Earwa so you can do magic and gods can do some stuff

I don't think I, or anyone, is contesting those points.

- And it's weak on Progenitors world so you can just watch your damnation through the IF and gods know you're here but can't do shit to you

I don't get this part though.
Either its so weak the humans/gods cant interact, or its not that weak and there is some interaction. That interaction is what allows the IF.

Seems unlikely that the IF is an exception to the rule: the rule that stops humans/mundane-creatures from access to the Outside without magic. So the proginators built the soggomatic ring and covered it with suspiciously runic circuitry - and Ajokli flipped the magic switch on when they pressed 'go'.

In other words, you'd never see any entities from the Outside through the Inverse Fire, because you are only viewing yourself from the perspective of the Outside. 

Mirror, maybe, but this bit doesn't make sense. Don't we know for a fact that people see all kinds of entities in the outside? What kind of mirror shows reflections of thousands that aren't standing in front of it?

But do they see them in the Inverse Fire?

Does the Inverse Fire show everyone thousands?

Serious questions, I am old and don't recall.

I think so. My recollection of the IF descriptions is that everyone sees legions of suffering.

I think its Mek that tells Kellhus to look into the IF and asks him 'have you found yourself', or some such. The implication is that while everyone has eventually found themselves, its not an immediate thing of them standing on their own, but in a crowed of some kind.

I think?

[H]

Well, I think it is a little more than just an artistic trope.  I just don't think they'd refer to them as "Principles" in that case.

But that's just the definition of personification:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

Personification is the related attribution of human form and characteristics to abstract concepts such as nations, emotions and natural forces like seasons and the weather.

I'm not following.  Calling them Principles is personification?  I'd think that it was Men who personified the 100, not Nonmen, who thought of them as abstract conceptual principles.

[SmilerLoki]

I'm not following.  Calling them Principles is personification?  I'd think that it was Men who personified the 100, not Nonmen, who thought of them as abstract conceptual principles.

Due to this entry in TUC Glossary I came to the conclusion that the Gods were personified by the Nonmen, too:

Hoar-Pelt—White bear-skin mantle that the Kings of Viri wore instead of a crown, rumoured to be a gift of Hûsyelt, Dark Hunter.