[Walter]

The No-God rewrites the Gods every time it interferes with their plans, right?  That is, their agents inhabit a world where they are destined to succeed, and have been so since the dawn of time, a la the WLW.  When Kelmomas fouls their plans the world transitions to one where they have ALWAYS been doomed to fail, and the Gods are overwritten in the same manner.

So when Kelmomas destroyed the first WLW's destiny Yatwer had retroactively never chosen him, her choice all along was Sorweel, who was totally destined to succeed.  When Sorweel was likewise pushed off the rails she presumably had always been pinning all her hopes on whoever her current guy is.

Ajokli is the same way.  He had always been planning to possess Kellhus.  When Kelmomas ruined that it retroactively was never his plan at all.  He had always been planning on using Cnaiur against Kellhus, which he attempts at the finale.

[themerchant]

Cnaiur tricks the consult into thinking he would fight for them.

[TaoHorror]

The No-God rewrites the Gods every time it interferes with their plans, right?  That is, their agents inhabit a world where they are destined to succeed, and have been so since the dawn of time, a la the WLW.  When Kelmomas fouls their plans the world transitions to one where they have ALWAYS been doomed to fail, and the Gods are overwritten in the same manner.

So when Kelmomas destroyed the first WLW's destiny Yatwer had retroactively never chosen him, her choice all along was Sorweel, who was totally destined to succeed.  When Sorweel was likewise pushed off the rails she presumably had always been pinning all her hopes on whoever her current guy is.

Ajokli is the same way.  He had always been planning to possess Kellhus.  When Kelmomas ruined that it retroactively was never his plan at all.  He had always been planning on using Cnaiur against Kellhus, which he attempts at the finale.

Very cool way of putting it, Walter - nicely done

[stuslayer]

Hi all, been reading this thread with interest. I've not picked up the books in a while, but this got me thinking. I can't remember if the Hundred (scripturewise) exist before or after Arkfall? If it is after, is it possible that the Inchoroi brough Ajokli with them when they crashed? The damnation they've been trying to escape is Ajokli's Hell, and that his 'agency' in Earwa is thanks to the Inchies, unable to escape him and bringing him with them? It would kind of fit with what the Consult are trying to achieve, and perhaps on a world with meaning, they finally have a chance to outwit him - then along comes Kelhus and buggers it all up. Just a line of thought, but interesting maybe? It would also explain why he is different to the rest of the gods, the connection implied with the Horns of Golgotterath, etc.

[TaoHorror]

Hi all, been reading this thread with interest. I've not picked up the books in a while, but this got me thinking. I can't remember if the Hundred (scripturewise) exist before or after Arkfall? If it is after, is it possible that the Inchoroi brough Ajokli with them when they crashed? The damnation they've been trying to escape is Ajokli's Hell, and that his 'agency' in Earwa is thanks to the Inchies, unable to escape him and bringing him with them? It would kind of fit with what the Consult are trying to achieve, and perhaps on a world with meaning, they finally have a chance to outwit him - then along comes Kelhus and buggers it all up. Just a line of thought, but interesting maybe? It would also explain why he is different to the rest of the gods, the connection implied with the Horns of Golgotterath, etc.

Man, you people are so smart coming up with this stuff, makes me feel small. Even if this misses the mark, it's impressive thinking on your part, thanks for bringing this up. Maybe the smarts will rub off on me one day.

If it wasn't for this forum, I would have no fricken idea about any of this stuff - and quite frankly, I still don't, but you cats got me thinking ...

[MSJ]

No, gods existed waaaay before Arkfall. Its what makes Earwa the Inchoroi's promised land because its connection to the Outside. Besides that, the Nonmen were trying to avoid damnation before Arkfall also, hence the mansions.

The more I think on it, the OP is close to the mark I believe. The stuff about Ajokli being a companion of the Gods and all that, Ajokli is different than the rest.

[Wilshire]

With the information we have, we know the Nonmen had some kind of god myths, or at least creation stories of some kind. We also know that the men over in Eanna had their own gods tha they worshiped.

Granted I don't know if that really counts as proof that gods actually existed before the Inchoroi came around, but at least men and nonmen both believed in them.

[mrganondorf]

Hi Walter!  I'm torn about Ajokli.  Part of me just thinks he's different in degree and not kind.  Yatwer can see sranc but not mog.  Ajokli can't see mog but he knows that he's missing something so he gets a man to deliver a report.  Ajokli knows something is casting a shadow and uses it to his advantage.

All of that makes me think different in degree and not kind, however...

The way Yatwer/Yatwerians regard 'hungers' as special and deplorable is really odd.  Yatwer doesn't seem to refer to any other god as a hunger and no hungers are gods (although there is a part where a ciphrang is referred to as a godling).

Makes me wonder if that is the horizon demarcation in the Outside.  Above the line are the gods and the 'heavens,' below the line are the hungers/demons and the 'hells.'  I have to put bunny ears on that because I'm not sure that heaven is categorically different than hell in the sense that the gods are consuming their pets in both places. 

I get the vibe that hungers are displeasing to gods because of the manner and substance they eat.  Perhaps Yatwer looks down on Ajokli because what he considers food (wicked souls) are filth to her.  Ajokli may be looking to supplant Yatwer and co because he eats filth, yes, but only because that's what they leave him and he would consume all.

I almost get a class war vibe off Ajokli, like he is the underclass, the unrecognized god, almost another Yatwer but for souls in the Outside.  Ajokli wants to overthrow the order not just for food but also for resentment of his place.

I found this thing that makes me think Bakker's worldview can be traced back to...I've got to look it up

[mrganondorf]

Ok, kind of late in Dune, after Paul has an encounter with a certain substance...

Paul said: "There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and an
ancient force that gives. A man finds little difficulty facing that place within
himself where the taking force dwells, but it's almost impossible for him to see
into the giving force without changing into something other than man. For a
woman, the situation is reversed."

Jessica looked up, found Chani was staring at her while listening to Paul.

"Do you understand me, Mother?" Paul asked.

She could only nod.

"These things are so ancient within us," Paul said, "that they're ground
into each separate cell of our bodies. We're shaped by such forces. You can say
to yourself, 'Yes, I see how such a thing may be. ' But when you look inward and
confront the raw force of your own life unshielded, you see your peril. You see
that this could overwhelm you. The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that
takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives. It's as easy to
be overwhelmed by giving as by taking."

This is why I think the Outside might boil down to polarizing forces of Yatwer and Ajokli/War; Giver and Taker

[MSJ]

With the information we have, we know the Nonmen had some kind of god myths, or at least creation stories of some kind. We also know that the men over in Eanna had their own gods tha they worshiped.

Granted I don't know if that really counts as proof that gods actually existed before the Inchoroi came around, but at least men and nonmen both believed in them.

Wilshire's famous quote, "We don't have enough information."

I call bullshit. Its the reasons the Nonmen dug out their Mansions in the first place and they are way older than Arkfall. They was using sorcery before Arkfall. I'm sure they stumbled across the Daimos before Arkfall. Those who made chorae (sorry, forget those fellows names was around and making chorae before Arkfall. They just didn't call them Gods, but principles.

I understand "we just don't have enough info", encourages conversation. But, all signs in the book point to the Gods existing before Arkfall, why else would it be the promised land??

[Wilshire]

Well first, I didn't say we don't have enough information, I simply pointed out what information we do have.

For any interested in learning more about the inter-workings of Wilshire's motivations, read on, though since its entirely tangential to the topic, I'm spoiler tagging it:

(click to show/hide)

But honestly to answer you question, I answer that way because, imo, the likelihood that someone will offer some unique insight is much higher if they're allowed to explore the thought rather than have 20,000 posts of 5 year old conversations pushed onto them, as well as all the interpersonal baggage that that carries as well.

The statement "gods existed way before Arkfall" is conjecture based on extrapolation from the information that we really do have, just like the original statement "gods didn't exist before arkfall" (well, it was phrased as a question, but you get it). I was not exploring the veracity of either.

stuslayer's original statement seemed, to me, to be be requesting some additional info, since it was a question rather than a statement or an elaborate fully formed theory. I was hoping that, with the information provided, I'd encourage a completion of the idea.

See, I already know what I think, and I already know what most of the regulars think about the subject (probably). Even though those conversations are great to have, I thought I'd give stuslayer some room to maneuver and perhaps come up with something interesting that we haven't already discussed.

Should that not happen I might then later give my own input as its entertaining to talk about. Even though I likely don't personally disagree with whatever is being said for or against this topic, I'll likely take a contrary stance to whatever is being said, since it makes for better conversation. (On that note, as I see it, nothing is worse than a bunch of us standing around shaking hands and congratulating eachother on how smart we all are for agreeing on everything - lol.)

Hope that answers your question MSJ .

[MSJ]

Wilshire, I never meant it as an indictment. I understand your trying to foster conversation.

But, all mythos and evidence points to Earwa always (maybe not always because as Bakker said the God split himself apart) having Gods. I already covered some of the evidence. But, I guess there is wiggle room for it not to be the case.

[stuslayer]

Good to see more discussion around this. To be clear, I accept that Gods exist before Arkfall, but scripture is written by Men, so offers the possibility of the appearance of Ajokli as a native Earwan God as a later fabrication by the Inchies, manipulating Men for their own ends, as with the Tusk (I seem to remember Husyelt being an Inchie plant from somewhere). If the Inchies brought Ajokli with them (albeit unwillingly, like the beast on their backs they cannot shake), it would explain a few things - IF anyone?

[MSJ]

Fair enough. What would it explain in your eyes?

[stuslayer]

It would be reasonable to think that if the Inchies brought damnation with them, they would want to keep the source of that damnation to themselves. With the IF as the goad, they want to escape the fate it foretells, and deceit is a useful way to manipulate the natives to do what they want without knowing it i.e. to goad the Nonmen into Ajokli's damnation, perhaps hoping to postpone their own inevitable fall while they seek a solution. Once the Consult come up with the NG, they deploy it too soon - the plan goes awry and Seswatha etc. do their thing and win the day - resetting everything back to the status quo, with Ajokli continuing to reap souls and the Inchies/Consult back to square one. However, for a time the NG did work - no more souls born, and I think as a counterpart, no more souls going to Hell. So they bide their time, the Consult find ways to use tekne to extend their lives indefinitely while coming up with a better plan - seeds sewn by the original Ajokli deception lead to the events of the SA and Resumption. The manner of the events in the GR would suggest to me that Ajokli is as unexpected to the Consult as he is unseen by Kel, and only the ultimate blind soul of Kelmomas is the joker in the pack, unwittingly and unexpectedly firing up the Sarcophagus - the Consult simply took advantage of providence.

Sorry for the wall of text and the jumble of ideas, this is very steam of conciousness at the moment! It also explains references to Ajokli being different to other gods, references of him as the trickster - I think that the Inchies have always had that in their 'nature', the potential deceit of Men through the Tusk (a vehicle to include Ajokli in the Earwan pantheon), the deceit of the Nonmen with the Womb Plague/Innoculation, the drawing of the Ordeal to Dagliash and the hidden nuke, etc etc. showing their 'trickiness'.

So to try and make sense of all I just wrote - Ajokli is the god of the Inchies, and not native Earwan, and he is essentially the god they deserve, his damnation being a reflection of their extreme hedonism and almost a karmic result of how they live.