[Cuttlefish]

What has made this series what it is were always the Dunyain. In addition to personally considering Kellhus's point of view delightful to read, it's objective that the subversion of usual fantasy tropes came from Kellhus's influence in the world; a world united before the evil was reading to face it, the fight brought to their doorstep, etc. So that's where Crabicus enters the fray - he is the character whose Dunyain mastery will prevent the last trilogy from being a repeat of the unlikely heroes uniting to prevent the destruction of the world. I'm nore interested in how he'll be different to his grandfather - posessing all the power of the Dunyain, but very little of their education, what new philosophy/religion or maybe even school of magic will he come up with? Anyway, every fantasy series has its heroes, all sorts of them, but only the Bakkerverse has the Dunyain, so I expect much from the last of the Dunyain.

[Wilshire]

Don't forget about the 4 dunyain running the Consult now. I hope they aren't off-screen the entire series.

[Cuttlefish]

Don't forget about the 4 dunyain running the Consult now. I hope they aren't off-screen the entire series.

Oh yeah, them too... Well, four is more than one, so Crabicus is handicapped (heh) in the race. But the four Dunyain are constrained by the Dunyain dogmas, while Crabicus is free to grasp the world all by himself, without a thousand years of conditioning, so maybe one will become more than four. But yeah, that's a good point, even without Crabicus, the ongoing Dunyain presence would make things different... Perhaps ending with the Consult's plan being accomplished and the world being sealed.

[H]

I don't know his role is that of a hero.  In fact, I venture to speculate that his role is largely same as "The Kid" in Blood Meridian.  He is the narrative exposition piece.  This is why he "has no name" and "has never needed one."

This is also probably why Bakker says he wants to write that story first, because indeed, it would seem like a pointless addendum on he story, because Crabicus does "nothing of real consequence."  It's more a story, like Blood Meridian as the “the ultimate Western” so the Crabikid as the "ultimate fantasy."  And by ultimate I don't really mean best, I mean, distilled in expression.  It's an "end-game" to the genre.  Where tSA was sort of the same kind of thing for Epic Fantasy, a distilled and inverted story, so will this be, but for the coming-of-age, bildungsroman-type of fantasy.  There won't be a hero at all.

[Thing called Sarcellus]

Crabby, although is a full blood Dunyain, was never conditioned.  He received half assed training by a lone Dunyain, while on the run, would be shoddy at best.  Kellhus had 20+ years to prepare for his final showdown.  I doubt that Mog will hang out waiting for Junior to get his shit together.

[TaoHorror]

Crabby, although is a full blood Dunyain, was never conditioned.  He received half assed training by a lone Dunyain, while on the run, would be shoddy at best.  Kellhus had 20+ years to prepare for his final showdown.  I doubt that Mog will hang out waiting for Junior to get his shit together.

Ah, yes, but Mog doesn't know about him - mystery, what are his capabilities, what surprising strengths will we see from NOT being conditioned, yet still Dunyain? The 1/2 breed may well surprise us ... or Bakker will flush him out as a dead-end like Sorweel.

[TLEILAXU]

Crabby, although is a full blood Dunyain, was never conditioned.  He received half assed training by a lone Dunyain, while on the run, would be shoddy at best.  Kellhus had 20+ years to prepare for his final showdown.  I doubt that Mog will hang out waiting for Junior to get his shit together.

Ah, yes, but Mog doesn't know about him - mystery, what are his capabilities, what surprising strengths will we see from NOT being conditioned, yet still Dunyain? The 1/2 breed may well surprise us ... or Bakker will flush him out as a dead-end like Sorweel.

Wait what, Sorweel wasn't a dead end, I mean, beside his end being dying. His death section with Yatwer calling him to her realm was beautiful and integral to the story, to what we lose when Meaning dies.

[Madness]

I will never understand this distaste for Sorweel's arc in TAE. I, for one, really enjoyed it.

[Dora Vee]

His death section with Yatwer calling him to her realm was beautiful and integral to the story, to what we lose when Meaning dies.

It won't mean anything to those who are damned.

[H]

His death section with Yatwer calling him to her realm was beautiful and integral to the story, to what we lose when Meaning dies.

It won't mean anything to those who are damned.

I don't quite follow what you mean here, Dora.  The end of the meaning that Sorweel experiences, is actually most "meaningful" for those who are damned.  That's the whole reason the Consult embarked on the path of Apocalypse.

[Dora Vee]

I meant that they're not going to care about the heavens if they know that they're damned anyway. So, they wouldn't mind if the entire system is scrapped. That is, IF they're aware that they won't go to the heavens no matter what they do.

I thought that the Consult was trying to destroy "meaning."

[H]

I meant that they're not going to care about the heavens if they know that they're damned anyway. So, they wouldn't mind if the entire system is scrapped. That is, IF they're aware that they won't go to the heavens no matter what they do.

I thought that the Consult was trying to destroy "meaning."

Well, yes they are trying to end "meaning," but I am admittedly using meaning in two different ways which is confusing (even to me).

In another thread, I wrote:

"What the death of meaning gets at is not a death of human consciousness, or of human society (for the most part), it's the death of what we would call "Higher Meaning" in modern parlance.  This presumes that "Lower Meaning" is actually not meaningful, which you can agree or disagree with, but in Eärwa this is presumed to be true.  Let me operationalize what the difference between these are.  Let's take an example:

Aurang rapes and murders thousands and then dies.  "Higher meaning" has Aurang's soul damned.  "Lower meaning" has Aurang remembered as a bad guy (ok, really bad guy).  Without the soul, there is no conveyance of meaning beyond death.  So, if Higher Meaning is gone, so is the accounting for what Aurang did; lower meaning might write what down what he did (for example), but that will only be an account of what he did.

So, when the No-God sunders Eärwa from the Outside, whatever happens loses any eternal quality.  It loses any eternal consequence and so loses any eternal meaning.  Everything is transient and pointless, except in the mundane terrestrial sense of meat begetting more meat.  You were a righteous and pious person?  Doesn't matter, you die and there is nothing.  You were a callous and capricious person?  Doesn't matter you die and there is nothing.

The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point?  Supply your own answer, at this point.  Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state?  Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning?"

So, it really isn't "Meaning" that the Consult seeks to destroy, but rather what we might call "Higher Meaning."  Unfortunately, I lack the vocabulary to disentangle the word meaning from itself, which ends up being confusing.  So, the loss of what Sorweel experiences is actually meaningful for both the Consult (it's what they don't want) and the rest of the world (what they do want).

(I actually don't think we disagree on anything, it's just a confusing thing to talk about.)