[TLEILAXU]

The Mutilated <3

[TaoHorror]

I think one of the "Mutilated" isn't badly hurt if I remember correctly. Just wondering how much of the damage they suffered effected their psychology ( maybe 1 is still sane - should we call them The Mutilated +1? ). It's understood they have minds like steel traps, but don't underestimate the effects of violent trauma, they're still human. And, as Bakker has pointed out, Kellhus made mistakes - the planet super-human now a common table seasoning. Could be 4 minds are stronger than 1, but it appeared he "out-classed" all 4 aggregately and still lost. While sporting extraordinary intellect, they are imperfect.

I digress ... agreed, POV from Moe leading Sylvendi with the TUC would apportion a nice POV for The Consult, if for no other reason I would like a roll call of The Consult. How many were there before Ishual, how many after and how many now, all with their race, age and skills/sorcery and techne manufacture, soul/soul-less. Its high time for a Consult census.

[Woden]

Apparently they have unlimited sranc, even with the toll imposed by scalpers and ordealmen. I don't know how many they had before all of that started but maybe billions.
I wonder how many bashrag, dragons, skin-spies and erratics they have now.

[Madness]

I think one of the "Mutilated" isn't badly hurt if I remember correctly. Just wondering how much of the damage they suffered effected their psychology ( maybe 1 is still sane - should we call them The Mutilated +1? ). It's understood they have minds like steel traps, but don't underestimate the effects of violent trauma, they're still human. And, as Bakker has pointed out, Kellhus made mistakes - the planet super-human now a common table seasoning. Could be 4 minds are stronger than 1, but it appeared he "out-classed" all 4 aggregately and still lost. While sporting extraordinary intellect, they are imperfect.

If the Survivor is any kind of cipher for the Mutilated, we're in for a ride .

I digress ... agreed, POV from Moe leading Sylvendi with the TUC would apportion a nice POV for The Consult, if for no other reason I would like a roll call of The Consult. How many were there before Ishual, how many after and how many now, all with their race, age and skills/sorcery and techne manufacture, soul/soul-less. Its high time for a Consult census.

Apparently they have unlimited sranc, even with the toll imposed by scalpers and ordealmen. I don't know how many they had before all of that started but maybe billions.
I wonder how many bashrag, dragons, skin-spies and erratics do they have now.

Well, we can surmise that the Mutilated are responsible for the Tekne innovations by the Consult in TAE: Sayothi Skin-Spies, which is almost certainly a nod to Zeum being permeated as far back as TJE, the increase in Weapon-Race numbers, the Tekne-Nuke, the Carapace with no Chorae.

Also, at least one of the Mutilated is of the Few and it would seem a given that the Wracu will return.

[H]

Well, we can surmise that the Mutilated are responsible for the Tekne innovations by the Consult in TAE: Sayothi Skin-Spies, which is almost certainly a nod to Zeum being permeated as far back as TJE, the increase in Weapon-Race numbers, the Tekne-Nuke, the Carapace with no Chorae.

Perhaps the biggest questions are (to me), where is the Sun Lance (and Heron Spear) now?  Also, with the advances, did they circumvent the "time-limit" on the No-God?

[Madness]

Well, we can surmise that the Mutilated are responsible for the Tekne innovations by the Consult in TAE: Sayothi Skin-Spies, which is almost certainly a nod to Zeum being permeated as far back as TJE, the increase in Weapon-Race numbers, the Tekne-Nuke, the Carapace with no Chorae.

Perhaps the biggest questions are (to me), where is the Sun Lance (and Heron Spear) now?  Also, with the advances, did they circumvent the "time-limit" on the No-God?

We should probably make a new thread, shouldn't we...

[Madness]

And done. As we were .

Well, we can surmise that the Mutilated are responsible for the Tekne innovations by the Consult in TAE: Sayothi Skin-Spies, which is almost certainly a nod to Zeum being permeated as far back as TJE, the increase in Weapon-Race numbers, the Tekne-Nuke, the Carapace with no Chorae.

Perhaps the biggest questions are (to me), where is the Sun Lance (and Heron Spear) now?  Also, with the advances, did they circumvent the "time-limit" on the No-God?

Likely the Sun Lance is in the hands of the Horde, thus the Mutilated, functional or otherwise. Heron Spear is still MIA.

I'm still not convinced that the No-God 2.0 without Chorae was because Kellhus is of the Few - rather, I'm fairly sure that the reason that the OG No-God needed Chorae was to contain the soul within, in perpetuity. The Consult had forgotten enough of the Tekne to boot up the No-God properly and didn't seem to get the No-God working again before Shauriatas, as he was the most accomplished sorcerer of the group and macgyver'd a sorcerous duct-tape.

Honestly, I want more body horror from Bakker. Go full Silent-Hill, let's have some new Weapons-Races. And Battle-Synthese!

[TLEILAXU]

What's the consensus on Shae living on in the Mutilated? I don't get why they'd say that Shae was "undone" if that was the case. Also, we definitely need some Mutilated POV in TNG and more weapon races indeed! I wonder if the Consult captured any of the whale-mothers. Would be cool to see what might be done with Dûnyain physiology and the Tekne combined.

[H]

I'm still not convinced that the No-God 2.0 without Chorae was because Kellhus is of the Few - rather, I'm fairly sure that the reason that the OG No-God needed Chorae was to contain the soul within, in perpetuity. The Consult had forgotten enough of the Tekne to boot up the No-God properly and didn't seem to get the No-God working again before Shauriatas, as he was the most accomplished sorcerer of the group and macgyver'd a sorcerous duct-tape.

That is possible.  Bakker said the the No-God 1.0 had a time limit.  This is why it had to sally forth at some point, despite it's vulnerability to the (still missing) Heron Spear.  That's up in the air now with NG 2.0 though.

If it were possible to leave the Chorae in place, it would seem much more prudent to do so, making the Sarcophagus immune to sorcery though.  Since they were removed, it's plausible to think that it simply was deemed not possible.  Or, thought to not be possible.  I do think, in this case then, that the Chorae were removed for Kellhus' sake.  The N-G 1.0 worked with the Chorae in place, it just seems unlikely 2.0 could not function with them in place, aside the issue of salting Kellhus in the act of insertion.

Considering that they tried numerous different souls in the Sarcophagus with no success, with the Chorae in place, I don't think that has any real importance on if the soul will "boot it" or not.  The soul's particular character is what matters, nothing else, in my mind.

[Madness]

What's the consensus on Shae living on in the Mutilated? I don't get why they'd say that Shae was "undone" if that was the case.

I'll put forth again, as I did in the 15+ pages of speculation on the topic, that Shauriatas managed - probably with the help of the Dunyain - to upload himself to the Ark because I think it would fit further thematic exploration by Bakker.

However, I was totally against the Shauriatas subsumed the Mutilated until Somnambulist suggested that the Mutilated would have absolutely no defense against Cants of Compulsions (which is probably what Consult sorcerers would use to manipulate captured Dunyain).

Also, we definitely need some Mutilated POV in TNG and more weapon races indeed! I wonder if the Consult captured any of the whale-mothers. Would be cool to see what might be done with Dûnyain physiology and the Tekne combined.

I wanted with Kellhus and now still hope with the Mutilated that Bakker will go full Neuropath with it, body augmentations included. Basically, lay out his perceived horror of his transhumanism argument while our narrative heroes strive in vain against it.

That is possible.  Bakker said the the No-God 1.0 had a time limit.  This is why it had to sally forth at some point, despite it's vulnerability to the (still missing) Heron Spear.  That's up in the air now with NG 2.0 though.

If it were possible to leave the Chorae in place, it would seem much more prudent to do so, making the Sarcophagus immune to sorcery though.  Since they were removed, it's plausible to think that it simply was deemed not possible.  Or, thought to not be possible.  I do think, in this case then, that the Chorae were removed for Kellhus' sake.  The N-G 1.0 worked with the Chorae in place, it just seems unlikely 2.0 could not function with them in place, aside the issue of salting Kellhus in the act of insertion.

I get the thought about Kellhus' safety entering the Carapace, still not sure about it. I suppose it's nice that the Whirlwind has all the Chorae this time except what's... barely left in the south.

[Cynical Cat]

The Cants of Compulsion aren't going to save the Consult from being subsumed by the Mutilated.  The Consult is completely and utterly vulnerable to being subsumed by the Dunyain by its very nature of existence.  Once the captured Dunyain are shown the Inverse Fire and convert their formidable gifts are added to the cause.  From that point on its inevitable that they'll learn sorcery and form the dominate core of the Consult.  The only way to really avoid this is to capture them, interrogate them, and then kill them which requires arrogant half mad immortals to have 20-20 foresight and throw away the shiny new weapon that has fallen into their hands.

Also I don't believe the Sranc numbers have anything to do with the Mutilated.  Their numbers are huge, but they are drawn from huge expanses of territory occupied by creatures that exist low down on the food chain.  The combined casualties is still probably in the single digit millions, which is scary and impressive, but not unreasonable given the vast swath of territory under consideration.

[TaoHorror]

Well, once the interrogation started ( interrogations work in both directions ), the Mutilated had them, cants or no cants. The mere fact they took prisoners means:

1) They underestimated them, simple as that – as any prison guard underestimates the captured rendered feeble. Also, as Bakker says, "humility" was not their strong suit, so could be as prisoners they were unconcerned of any threat they posed and thought themselves protected with their cants, maybe the arrogance of sorcery towards the unmarked – magic/technology trumps intellect. Or immortality lends to immaturity - Bakker surely doesn't imbue much wisdom to his gods in Earwa; just a bunch of fuckers feeding on the fat/souls of humanity. And the non-men go insane with immortality. Could be they were so outclassed intellectually to the point they didn't understand the danger they put themselves in by bringing them into their mists.

2) They wanted to recruit them - I hadn't thought of this, but this has some merit, I think. Could be they wanted to see if they were damned likewise and enlist them to their common cause once the Dunyain were "educated" on hell. The war on Ishual was impressive, quite the campaign taking what appeared to me in the text massive losses ( a 1,000 sorcerers/magi/shriekers? ) and wanted some of that logos stuff on their side. Seems like you’all are leaning in this direction, appears I need to do a re-read.

[SmilerLoki]

On a related note, the numbers of singers that assaulted Ishual seem very suspect to me. The way Koringhus describes it, there were far more sorcerers than we see at Golgotterath, when the Consult fends off Kellhus and his - huge - army.

[TaoHorror]

Good point, could be he lied/exaggerated. Bakker has said he doesn't let the reader in on when entities lie in the story. Either contextually we have to determine what is and isn't, otherwise we're misled either purposely or not.

[TLEILAXU]

What's the consensus on Shae living on in the Mutilated? I don't get why they'd say that Shae was "undone" if that was the case.

I'll put forth again, as I did in the 15+ pages of speculation on the topic, that Shauriatas managed - probably with the help of the Dunyain - to upload himself to the Ark because I think it would fit further thematic exploration by Bakker.

The thing is, like, are there any indications for this? I've been back and forth on this topic in my mind. On one hand I can see why people might say that Shae is in the Mutilated. Their cyclic speech, "the truth spoke with but one soul", the weak spirit of the Dûnyain etc. On the other hand the "undone" comment really throws me off. I had this thought earlier, that he might've become a Ciphrang, but that makes even less sense...