[robizeratul]

The Dunyain where right. Even if the world works differently than they thought, it doesn't matter.
 
Even if they can't reach the absolute (or if the absolute is very far away) they are the only ones on the right path . Imagine if Kellhus where 2x, 5x or 10x "closer" to the ideal, surely he would have succeeded.
 
The series is an argument between intellect and irrationality (feelings) with the scales going from one to the other. For 2000 years the Dunyain where pursuing Intellect, so our main character ( Kellhus ) starts out at that end. The moment he leaves Ishual he is broken. I think few people understand how significant this is for his kind. Moengus didn't suffer this fate. After that he follows the shortest in some ways, but in others he is deceiving himself.. He loves Serwe, Esmenet,Cnaiur, Akkamian and even Proyas, the worst sin however is that he loves himself.
 
Every mistake Kellhus makes is because of love...Moe is his last test. Instead of talking to him (someone more experienced both with the world and the Logos) and figuring out the shortest path, he gives some bullshit justification and he commits the murder. He is afraid that the shortest path might require his own death, he is afraid of a truth that inconveniences him. He chooses self deception.
 
Now there is nobody who sees as "deep" as him, nobody who can see his darkness. This way Kellhus becomes just as anyone else in this world. Talking and debating with your equals and betters is the foundation of rationality, of the Logos. The Dunyain accomplished their great feats with fanatical cooperation, every generation "building" the next. Now the only person he can talk to is himself. 
 
What comes before determines what comes after. Because of these mistakes and a few others, he goes back after Esmenet. Even then, he still has a choice. Letting Kelmomas live  was the culmination of his irrationality, a process that started more than 20 years before.
 
Kellhus was the harbinger and everything that happened was his fault. A "stronger" Dunyain would have made the same choices but without the mistakes. He had plenty of opportunities but again and again he didn't stay true to the Logos...
 
The world will burn because Kellhus didn't follow the shortest path, the world will burn because Kellhus loved.

[H]

Kellhus was the harbinger and everything that happened was his fault. A "stronger" Dunyain would have made the same choices but without the mistakes. He had plenty of opportunities but again and again he didn't stay true to the Logos...

But don't the Mutilated show that Kellhus was at least partially right, in thinking that any Dûnyain would join the Consult?

I think that what you are saying, overall, is somewhat true though.  Had Kellhus been more logical toward the end, things were preventable.  However, had he been so hyper-logical, the situation would never have arose.  The Shortest Path really is through the No-God.  The Mutilated realize this.  Kellhus realizes this too, but finds it an unacceptable solution, probably for the reasons you state.

[MSJ]

H, I have a tune in me head

What's love got to do, got do with it

What's love but all the TSA is about!

What's love got to do, got to do with it?

Horns of Golgottereth almost feeeeeelll.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed.]

[SuJuroit]

But don't the Mutilated show that Kellhus was at least partially right, in thinking that any Dûnyain would join the Consult?

I think that what you are saying, overall, is somewhat true though.  Had Kellhus been more logical toward the end, things were preventable.  However, had he been so hyper-logical, the situation would never have arose.  The Shortest Path really is through the No-God.  The Mutilated realize this.  Kellhus realizes this too, but finds it an unacceptable solution, probably for the reasons you state.

My take is that Kellhus' decision was the result of Ajokli's influence.  As you say, for the Dunyain the Consult are right and the No-God represents the Shortest Path.  But Kellhus states that he's "more" than Dunyain.  What makes him more?  His connection to Ajokli.  And of course, Ajokli is very keen on stopping Resumption...

[MSJ]

My take is that Kellhus' decision was the result of Ajokli's influence.  As you say, for the Dunyain the Consult are right and the No-God represents the Shortest Path.  But Kellhus states that he's "more" than Dunyain.  What makes him more?  His connection to Ajokli.  And of course, Ajokli is very keen on stopping Resumption...

I disagree to an extent, based on Kellhus. One, I don't think Kelllhus even encountered Ajokli til he went to the Outside, the most crocodillian of Sons. Everyone is pointing back to the Circumfix, I don't buy it. No actual textual proof. At that time, he says it's the No-God speaking to him, "What am I". And, I think he truly believes he was the harbinger, which he confesses to Moe at Kyudea. He wanted to save humanity, and I think he had a con to trick Ajokli out of whatever pact they made. Kellhus decisions were the result of the Thousandfold Thought.

[SuJuroit]

Remember that the gods exist outside of time.  Kellhus' first encounter with Ajokli was not necessarily Ajokli's first interaction with Kellhus.  Ajokli has always been connected to Kellhus, in the same way that Kelmomas was always the No-God.

[MSJ]

Remember that the gods exist outside of time.  Kellhus' first encounter with Ajokli was not necessarily Ajokli's first interaction with Kellhus.  Ajokli has always been connected to Kellhus, in the same way that Kelmomas was always the No-God.

I might be wrong, I don't think it's the same. The 100 can intercede in a person's life, like a Narindar. And since as you said about the nature of time, the Gods see all. But, I don't take that as Kellhus from his time of birth was always connected to Ajokli. I take it as Ajokli was willing to use Kellhus as tool. I could be wrong though. This here, what we're discussing, is the very paradox Bakker suggests about that which comes after determines what comes before. You could well be right. Its just not how I see it. I see it differently than Mimara having the JE or Kel being the No-God. You make a good point though.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]

[robizeratul]

Some good discussion going on here! Damn this stuff is complicated...It's hard even to find the right words!
 
 
I think it's simple a question of ambition. It's the case that 2 things can be true at the same time. The shortest path is both true the No-God and Kellhus. The difference is power.
 
The dunsult want to close of the world, that's the only logical thing FOR THEM, for the dunyain. For Kellhus however it's different. He even admits he is stronger than the gods ( because he exists in one moment not in many). He has magic and other information the others lack.
 
I think Kellhus' only fault is wanting to have the cake and eat it too. Like I said in the first post, he makes exception to the shortest path because of "self".
 
Of course, MSJ, it's true. We on the forum can discuss the fact that things could have gone a different way, however if the No-God is inevitable it means that choice doesn't really exists in Earwa, it means that every struggle and decision leading to this point was just an illusion. The secret lies in Ajokli I think. Maybe his presence/influence will explain the contradiction. 
 
Can gods deceive each other? how could the the WLW fail? Can the godhead deceive itself? Who knows...

[MSJ]

Of course, MSJ, it's true. We on the forum can discuss the fact that things could have gone a different way, however if the No-God is inevitable it means that choice doesn't really exists in Earwa, it means that every struggle and decision leading to this point was just an illusion. The secret lies in Ajokli I think. Maybe his presence/influence will explain the contradiction. 
 
Can gods deceive each other? how could the the WLW fail? Can the godhead deceive itself? Who knows...

What if the No-God isn't a certainty? Remember, Kellhus says even the Gods can be fooled (paraphrasing...badly). So, say, this time the No-God is destroyed, carapace and all. No more chances for the Consult. Then time changes on the Outside, right?

[robizeratul]

IT's all over the place...
 
From what I can tell, time itself, the outside, everything is linked. Time changes the outside but the gods can't conceive of this. They can't be aware of it. If that's true, then the No-God is like a "random machine". Literally the only thing in a deterministic universe(deterministic both ways, if that makes any sense) that doesn't have a before and after. Both what comes before, and what comes after doesn't determine it. 
 
I imagine our own universe, and the existence of other universes out there. We could do our own thing for billions of years without breaking the principle, but when something from the other universe gets it, it breaks causality, time itself.
 
 
I think that could be a cool idea. The only problem is the " he was always the No-God" line, so Kelmomas doesn't exist outside of time, it doesn't make sense for him to be destined to do anything. If everything he ever did was dumb luck than maybe it would make sense. However that would make Kellhus wrong.

[Duskweaver]

If you take time out of the equation, then the only way anything can change is for the entire universe to be remade from the ground up. Including all your memories and knowledge, meaning you can never be aware of the change. That's what being one of the Hundred is like.

As I've said before, mortals are divided by moments, the Gods by whole Realities.

[TLEILAXU]

IT's all over the place...
 
From what I can tell, time itself, the outside, everything is linked. Time changes the outside but the gods can't conceive of this. They can't be aware of it. If that's true, then the No-God is like a "random machine". Literally the only thing in a deterministic universe(deterministic both ways, if that makes any sense) that doesn't have a before and after. Both what comes before, and what comes after doesn't determine it. 
 
I imagine our own universe, and the existence of other universes out there. We could do our own thing for billions of years without breaking the principle, but when something from the other universe gets it, it breaks causality, time itself.
 
 
I think that could be a cool idea. The only problem is the " he was always the No-God" line, so Kelmomas doesn't exist outside of time, it doesn't make sense for him to be destined to do anything. If everything he ever did was dumb luck than maybe it would make sense. However that would make Kellhus wrong.

Isn't dumb luck essentially what a white luck warrior is? I'm not quite sure how or why, but it does seem the No-God was causally fated to manifest. A white-luck outside of eternity.

[Madness]

If you take time out of the equation, then the only way anything can change is for the entire universe to be remade from the ground up. Including all your memories and knowledge, meaning you can never be aware of the change. That's what being one of the Hundred is like.

As I've said before, mortals are divided by moments, the Gods by whole Realities.

+1

[Wilshire]

If you take time out of the equation, then the only way anything can change is for the entire universe to be remade from the ground up. Including all your memories and knowledge, meaning you can never be aware of the change. That's what being one of the Hundred is like.

As I've said before, mortals are divided by moments, the Gods by whole Realities.

+1

This is a great thought.

[Erratic Halaroi]

Agreed...well said, Duskweaver.  I think there is some nuance to the difference between being a "god" and a "super being".  As mortals, we sometimes like to think we know what it is like to be a god...and all thing that come with that. Our perspective of what "godhood" would entail is very limited and usually only involves MORE...i.e. more power, more time, more control, etc...thus, more of a "super being"...which fits more with our perspective and what we, as mortals can comprehend.  True godhood, on the other hand, is a whole nother beast entirely...and one we have a much harder time wrapping our decidedly NON godhood level minds around.  It sure is fun to read from those who attempt it though (thanks, Bakker!).