[TaoHorror]

I agree - I don't want the series spoiled for me. So I support him in not providing "good" answers for the future. That said, anything he thinks we should've gotten should get an answer when we don't - not cryptic you missed something in some scene. But that's not too bad as I don't want the author to explain everything to me, but if he genuinely wants us to get some things, pick up on significance, then just spill it.

I do agree.  I think some things likely should be less opaque, ideally.  But, not necessarily so much so that we have nothing to think about or discuss.  If there were, hypothetically, no ambiguity, there would be nothing to really talk about.

In other words, if everything was just a matter of facts, once we had the facts, we'd be "done."  But it's not a matter of facts, to me, it's a matter of interpretation.

Right - look at all of the rich discussion here over the years on the story. Some of the contemplations I've read here are as interesting as the story itself, even the wrong ones - we don't know yet which are/will be correct, maybe none are, but even if/when some speculations are vetted incorrect, they're still fun to read, got me thinking and allowed me to connect with other enthusiasts. Otherwise it just becomes a love fest/rock concert of cheering if it was all laid out clear with no poetry to it.

[Rots]

Im not looking for RSB to just spell it out - if i wanted that this series would be a few paragraphs. But when he says specific things and doesnt follow up it annoys me. But, whatever, if he writes more ill buy it cause the work is still great but i can deal w/fewer RSB proclamations, tbh. Zombie three seas is a lost world.

As for the 'winning' condition, yes, its probably going to be Mimara focused. But again, its all guesses. Id honestly prefer to not have a redux of the First Apocalypse w/a last second save taking down the No-God. Its hard to see how future books dont just rehash the First Apocalypse but this time w/a different magical last second save.

Im up for more atrocity tales. Id like to learn all about the Consult, which RSB said we would (and then didnt), more details post ArkFall, etc etc.

I still love the books, just feeling quite meh about their author. Compartmentalizing ftw!

[Wilshire]

I still love the books, just feeling quite meh about their author. Compartmentalizing ftw!

I think many people feel this way.

[H]

I don't know, I guess I am just pretty resigned to the fact that Bakker is a flawed person.  I guess that just doesn't surprise me.

I mean, I do wish some things were done differently in the books, but they just are what they are (now).

I, however, do see numerous ways that TNG doesn't have to be a rehash of the First Apocalypse.  We don't know what the "personality" of the insertant has, as an effect, on the behavior of the No-God apparatus (if any).  We don't know what the long term consequence will be of the removal of the Chorae from the Carapace, despite the massive culling that the Schools underwent as a result of the end of the Ordeal, presumably the No-God is relatively "more" vulnerable to sorcery this time.

Plus, there is a decided lack of leadership as many of the "old powers" were lost in the Ordeal.  There is also the "added" factor of the Fanim, more specifically, the fact that Kellhus specifically did not kill Meppa, meaning that the Psûhke is still "on the table."

Then, of course, is the added factor of Mimara.  In my deluded mind, Kellhus' comment that "she is what he pretends to be" or however it is phrased, is a fact.  That she will be something like a "Prophet" or a savior.  That alone is much different than the First Apocalypse.

Also, I still do think that Bakker is "playing" (in a sort of Heideggerian way) with the word "Apocalypse."  While it's "common use" is taken more from it's biblical tone, it's root is: "Old English, via Old French and ecclesiastical Latin from Greek apokalupsis, from apokaluptein ‘uncover, reveal’, from apo- ‘un-’ + kaluptein ‘to cover’."  So, what is uncovered, or revealed?  To me, that is the call to the role of Mimara.  The "revelation" that Logos (rationality/logic) is not the "savior" nor is the "tekne" (technology).  No, the "answer" is more akin to Hegel's "Geist," that is, Spirit.  I won't rehash the circumlocutions of my Eärwan Souls thread here, but there is something "there" to me.

[Wilshire]

I didnt mean to suggest that TNG would be a rehash. Only insofar as the entire TSA series is a rehash of the First Apocalypse to begin (which it most definitely is) and historical events repeating keeps happening both in long term and even shorter term (Short term: moenghus->20 years->dies chorae, repeated by Kellhus->20 years-> dies chorae. Long Term: See Ordeal in First Apocalypse and Great Ordeal in Second).

IMO the conclusion of the Mog Pharau itself is pretty inevitable. The specific How will be different than last time around, and the timing might be way different. There's only supposed to be 2 books, and one of them is following around Crabicus (probably). My suspicion is that the entire ending saga will be rather succinct, with much of the story arcs concluded in the first book, and the second book a bunch of exposition with Crabicus and Narrator after the end of the world is resolved.

[H]

I didnt mean to suggest that TNG would be a rehash. Only insofar as the entire TSA series is a rehash of the First Apocalypse to begin (which it most definitely is) and historical events repeating keeps happening both in long term and even shorter term (Short term: moenghus->20 years->dies chorae, repeated by Kellhus->20 years-> dies chorae. Long Term: See Ordeal in First Apocalypse and Great Ordeal in Second).

Oh, no, that was to follow up on what Rots was saying, not that you were implying it would be.  Of course, the path is prepapred to a degree, the Second Apocalypse naturally following the First.  But there are a number of historically "contingent" aspects of the First that are not likely to be the case in the second.  But I think the point is that some things will likely be "mirrored" again, like the "Seswatha role" being taken on by Akka.

IMO the conclusion of the Mog Pharau itself is pretty inevitable. The specific How will be different than last time around, and the timing might be way different. There's only supposed to be 2 books, and one of them is following around Crabicus (probably). My suspicion is that the entire ending saga will be rather succinct, with much of the story arcs concluded in the first book, and the second book a bunch of exposition with Crabicus and Narrator after the end of the world is resolved.

Well, Bakker's "anticipated" series lengths never have really panned out.  First, it was to be 3 books, total.  The first turned into 3 books itself.  The second into 4 books.  The last into a hypothetical 3 books.  I would not be surprised if it was actually 4 books though, once he really gets into writing them.

[Wilshire]

The first turned into 3 books itself.

Since he split the entire series from 3 books to 3 individual series, TNG was always 2 books (with PON and TAE supposed to be 3 books).

I think 2 is likely, with 3 being possible if he gets into it.

[H]

Since he split the entire series from 3 books to 3 individual series, TNG was always 2 books (with PON and TAE supposed to be 3 books).

I think 2 is likely, with 3 being possible if he gets into it.

Well, his "estimates" have always turned out to be on the low side in the past.  We can either surmise he is getting better and more accurate now.  Or, that he will be just as inaccurate as ever.  Without any fact of the matter on his future writing, we can safely say we just have to wait and see how it turns out.

[SmilerLoki]

I'm reasonably certain there will be similarities to the First Apocalypse and new revelations alike (on the latter part especially, I'm with H).

[H]

I'm reasonably certain there will be similarities to the First Apocalypse and new revelations alike (on the latter part especially, I'm with H).

Yeah, I think Mimara is very much the "complicating" factor, also, maybe the baby as well.  Otherwise, indeed, there is a large amount of parallel between the First and what will be the Second Apocalypse.  Part of what is likely to be significatly different though, is the Mutilated and if there is, possibly, some difference in the No-God as a result of the different insertant.  Or, is the matter of the insertant irrelevant.  As they are likened to circuits, do circuits have personality?  No.  But, does that mean that every circuit will behave the exact same way?  Unclear in this case.  Could be one would last longer or shorter (we know the No-God has a "shelf-life" of sorts).  Could be that one performs some aspect of function better.  It's hard to say, just depends on what Bakker wants to do thematically with it...

[Wilshire]

No-God reminds me of Sin from FFX. Spoilers, its a big ass monster that destroys  cities, and when whoever kills it becomes it the next time around. You break the cycle of rebirth by doing some flim flam involving utilizing the emotions of the previous insertant and killing it in a special way so that it doesn't regenerate.

Kelmomas being a known quantity and hyper obsessed with Esmi is a pretty close approximation of that scenario.

[H]

I think there is a sort inflection point there on what Bakker wants to do with regards to the No-God.

He can either double down on the sort of p-zombie, technological aspect, that is, that the No-God is more a thing, than a subjective consciousness.  Or, he can open it up, that, with this particular iteration, for whatever reason, this No-God is less "thing-like."

Frankly, there is no clear indication which way he wants to go.  In fact, Bakker has even made nebulous comments about there being "two ways to go" or some such.  That could well be part of it.  It could even be the case that he isn't 100% sure, or at least wasn't as of the end to TUC which way he really preferred.

[TaoHorror]

The nature of TNG could get thick - they jump started it, so it may not behave much as it did in the past. Even if not conscious, it may have Consult unintended consequences, like including them in the population reduction, it may well kill them off first and then who controls/influences it ... Esmi?. The thing cruises around, killing everyone, looking for it's mother. Anyways, just daydreaming, hope we get to find out.

[H]

The nature of TNG could get thick - they jump started it, so it may not behave much as it did in the past. Even if not conscious, it may have Consult unintended consequences, like including them in the population reduction, it may well kill them off first and then who controls/influences it ... Esmi?. The thing cruises around, killing everyone, looking for it's mother. Anyways, just daydreaming, hope we get to find out.

Well, it certainly would be a major question as to if Kelmomas can even recognize Emenet at this point, or, well anything for that matter.  The fact that it both iterations of the No-God seem intent on, at least, attempting self-discovery, that is, appealing to self-consciousness, means there might be something left of the Insertant.

But that could well be delusion, if Bakker wants to take it that direction.  I'd say it likely is a bit more interesting if there is some "personality" left of Kel in the No-God, but that might be incompatible with the thematic notion Bakker has in the hypothetical "union of subject and object" sense.

[TaoHorror]

I find the idea of TNG being conscious ( sorta, kinda, maybe or even completely ) fascinating and that could take the story in many interesting directions. But, even if not conscious, since The Consult doesn't know what they're doing with the thing, simply getting it to work could've read the insertant incorrectly and it could be programmed to find mommy, for example. A mindless mass killing machine coded to search for Esmi because the Consult fucked up and didn't understand exactly how the thing is supposed to work. R is pretty good at not giving us what we're expecting, so there's no telling who rises, falls and likely no clear "winner". TNG is defeated, but something worse results than the population being reduced to 144k or TNG is not defeated, but humanity thrives in it's wake, etc. I want to know what happens to the souls it reads - are they destroyed or do they return to the Cubit or go to the outside or simply roam around inside ...