[Blackstone]

There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

[generalguy]

There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

Some readers will accept any drivel that comes from their favorite author as the words of God. I would hope that we all recognize that TUC while nice it was even published leaves a lot to be desired. How much of that circumstance is under our control is debatable

But it's clear tuc desperately needed a critical editor, a judging eye if you will and not a once over by superfans -- someone who could reign in bakkers bad writing habits.

I don't mind elliptical prose it's just that you need more than just ellipses

I don't mind a downer ending if it follows from the story which it did--the cliffhanger nature and the unclear connection between the main threads of the first few books is what irks me most. Akka and Mimaras excellent adventure and the whole momemn plotline barely integrate and even the parts I can see working are tenuously connected at best. Hell kellhus literally teleports back shits on everyone and then teleports the two principals back to the action. I guess he wrote himself into a corner to get Esme and kelmomas to their places. Also a kind of lame way tojustify the camera character.

The daimos and kellhus learning it from iyokus is critical but there's literally nothing that indicates that beforehand. The mystical head powers are just sort of thrown in. Where are the flashbacks like of kellhus learning in ishual as establishing text? In fact the lack of kellhus pov is a pretty great weakness of tae in general -- his thoughts are crucial to understanding the rest and without them everything feels hollow. It's a major strategic mistake IMO and makes a lot of TUC and the reveals therein much more artificial than they could have been (editing!)


Also a glossary and lore dump isn't a substitute for an actual story as much as I like the world building.




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[themerchant]

There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

Yeah everyone can agree a competent editor would be nice, especially for TGO (for me anyway that was worse than TUC)

I must be a poor reader cause i miss all the mistakes mostly, my brain seems to ignore them, like changing of how names are spelled etc. Most of it doesn't even register.

More "complete and satisfying" are completely subjective though, TUC is my favourite book in a long long time. I would have no problem with the series finishing there.

[themerchant]

There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

Some readers will accept any drivel that comes from their favorite author as the words of God. I would hope that we all recognize that TUC while nice it was even published leaves a lot to be desired. How much of that circumstance is under our control is debatable

I don't think readers confusing the words of an author for the entity that created everything is really actually a problem in real life lol. So much melodrama. What's this need to invent little narratives about readers? It's strange, it's prevalent on that other forum too. Let's talk about the books not our poorly sculpted stereotype of the readers.

Yes an editor would be great.

[generalguy]

There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

Some readers will accept any drivel that comes from their favorite author as the words of God. I would hope that we all recognize that TUC while nice it was even published leaves a lot to be desired. How much of that circumstance is under our control is debatable

I don't think readers confusing the words of an author for the entity that created everything is really actually a problem in real life lol. So much melodrama. What's this need to invent little narratives about readers? It's strange, it's prevalent on that other forum too. Let's talk about the books not our poorly sculpted stereotype of the readers.

Yes an editor would be great.

Fair enough.

I do think some of the defense of TUC is leaning a bit too heavily toward slavish acceptance of poor plotting and unclear writing being accepted as just a stylistic choice but to each their own.


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[themerchant]

There were 3 books in the series.The Prince of Nothing, The Aspect Emperor and The No-god. ( as was guessed years ago)

We have finished 2 out of 3. Now of course each book got arbitrarily split into smaller books, due to the way publishing is. (I don't know much about it)

When Bakker was a teenager 40 years ago he conceived the end of the series to be what we just read, Adult Bakker has different ideas.

A lot of the problems comes from an incomplete memory of the text.

I always go back to TGO when people were complaining how the Earthquake came from nowhere. Nothing in the text etc. Yet we had an earthquake in TWP, we had characters remembering earthquakes etc. It's just incomplete knowledge of the text.

The amount of pages devoted to the meat has been described as 40% or 200 pages. It's about 8% and 31 pages.

It is my recollection from reading passages from Bakker himself that the follow-on duology is jut something to build on the main thrust of the story, which is what we just finished. Which is fine. And that is kind of what you are saying in the teenage Bakker vs. adult Bakker. As a reader, I am disappointed with the conclusion with the main thrust of the story. Do not take this to mean that I am disappointed in the "who won" or even the final conclusion. I am disappointed in the manner in which we got there and the manner in which it was executed.

TUC felt cobbled together in ways the other books didn't. I think the writing mechanics were poorer than previous books (as in he spent much less time or had less editorial input from critical readers). I felt like storylines that I was led to believe were important were not in the least significant. I don't care about the meat or the cannibalism or the earthquakes. I loved all that stuff. So what I am getting at is that adult Bakker should have probably taken a more critical look at what his teenage self came up and thought, "do I have to slavishly stick to what I dreamed up as a teen, or can I tighten this stuff up into a more complete and satisfying tale."

Some readers like it the way it is. I do not. It felt cheap.

Some readers will accept any drivel that comes from their favorite author as the words of God. I would hope that we all recognize that TUC while nice it was even published leaves a lot to be desired. How much of that circumstance is under our control is debatable

I don't think readers confusing the words of an author for the entity that created everything is really actually a problem in real life lol. So much melodrama. What's this need to invent little narratives about readers? It's strange, it's prevalent on that other forum too. Let's talk about the books not our poorly sculpted stereotype of the readers.

Yes an editor would be great.

Fair enough.

I do think some of the defense of TUC is leaning a bit too heavily toward slavish acceptance of poor plotting and unclear writing being accepted as just a stylistic choice but to each their own.


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Folk will be biased, no other way. I personally hated the part of TGO where Kellhus comes back to the Fanim and tells jokes etc. It bothers me even more since in the first chapter of TUC Kellhus is back to his serene self.

That's why TGO is my least favourite book in the series.

TUC didn't have anything like that for me personally.

I think everyone would agree the book could have been improved by a competent editor.

[Redeagl]

I never thought TUC would be the ending. Just a major point near the end of the series that he liked and if the worst happen, won't mind to stop or at least rest at for some time. I don't want to appear like a know-it all elitist but, the forum is named THE SECOND APOCALYPSE. Before I bought the then released 5 books of the series, I googled a bit and found out that Bakker is planning a third sub series. That was 2014, nothing new. While I was reading PoN I "guessed" that the NG have to be resurrected successfully at some point and the Consult have to win ( at least momentarily)  somehow. So, I didn't detest the ending at all. Despite what Bakker said ( or at least how it was mostly interpreted) .and tbh, this whole sub series thing hurt Bakker far more than it helped him. It would have been better if TSA was the official name of the books and it was one whole big series with Bakker giving the sub series names unofficially rather than what we got.

[TLEILAXU]

I honestly didn't know there would be a third series before after I already finished TUC and came here to talk about it, and even then I felt it'd be a good place to end. I agree that the whole series within series thing is a bit unnecessary and confusing. You can't really just pick up TJE without having read PoN first anyway.

[Blackstone]

Fair enough.

I do think some of the defense of TUC is leaning a bit too heavily toward slavish acceptance of poor plotting and unclear writing being accepted as just a stylistic choice but to each their own.


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Yes. I would agree with that. Because I don't feel at all satisfied. The Momemn story line was pointless, other than to set up Kelmomas. Meppa was unnecessary to the entire 4 book series, other than to give some sort of conflict to the Momemn storyline. I think better plotting could have cut 90% of that out of the book.

Malowebi was only useful as a POV to counterbalance the above.

Sorweel had no impact on the end of the story. He literally did nothing that had a lasting impact on the story other than die, thereby driving the final wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas.

The Ishterebinth sections were ultimately a non-factor. Some Non-men showed up at the end, but I'm guessing there were four pages at most (don't have the book handy to check) of them battling.

The Scylvendi were a non-factor. They never attacked the GO in a meaningful way.

Mimara and Achamian did nothing. She didn't even apprehend Kellhus with the Judging Eye, which would have offered some insight into Kellhus. And some sort of bold, heroic action on her part would have quashed all the people that cry misogyny. But had they never showed up at the battle, nothing would have changed.

I point all this out because it reflects poor plotting. The fact that none of the above came to nothing or very little is what makes me feel like this book fizzled.

I loved the series. I "liked" the book insomuch as it wrapped up the story. It was ultimately a letdown, because I feel like a lot of decisions were made to draw out the series for more books and more money (a la George RR Martin). It's not enough that huge sections of the book are just "enjoyable to read." They need to have some sort of purpose to justify their existence or the whole thing just looks like loose plotting.

The biggest writing peeve that I had was the figurative language. It was overused to the point of distraction and was sometimes completely nonsensical.
He didn't so much seethe as become a macabre specter of dashed hopes and dreams.

[Blackstone]

I never thought TUC would be the ending. Just a major point near the end of the series that he liked and if the worst happen, won't mind to stop or at least rest at for some time. I don't want to appear like a know-it all elitist but, the forum is named THE SECOND APOCALYPSE. Before I bought the then released 5 books of the series, I googled a bit and found out that Bakker is planning a third sub series. That was 2014, nothing new. While I was reading PoN I "guessed" that the NG have to be resurrected successfully at some point and the Consult have to win ( at least momentarily)  somehow. So, I didn't detest the ending at all. Despite what Bakker said ( or at least how it was mostly interpreted) .and tbh, this whole sub series thing hurt Bakker far more than it helped him. It would have been better if TSA was the official name of the books and it was one whole big series with Bakker giving the sub series names unofficially rather than what we got.

My issue isn't with how it ended. I'm perfectly fine with the Unholy Consult winning and the resurrection.

Edit - This was a series. PoN was a series and I was satisfied by the beginning, middle, and end. All of the threads were drawn together and had some impact on each other. TAE was a series and the same cannot be said for all the threads. Most of them were irrelevant.

[themerchant]

I'm honestly baffled by contentions like:

"Sorweel had no impact on the end of the story. He literally did nothing that had a lasting impact on the story other than die, thereby driving the final wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas. "

What final wedge? Kellhus wanted Kelmomas released that's why he told esmi not to do it, that's why throughout the series half-dunyain have been telling esmi they wont say what kellhus would do because of the sum of the grudge she has against him and that would make her do just the opposite. It's why in the passage Kellhus tells her we get Akka's point of view and he can see how much esmi hates Kellhus.

I guess we just have different interpretations of what the end of story actually was, which obviously gives us different conclusions.

[Blackstone]

I'm honestly baffled by contentions like:

"Sorweel had no impact on the end of the story. He literally did nothing that had a lasting impact on the story other than die, thereby driving the final wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas. "

What final wedge? Kellhus wanted Kelmomas released that's why he told esmi not to do it, that's why throughout the series half-dunyain have been telling esmi they wont say what kellhus would do because of the sum of the grudge she has against him and that would make her do just the opposite. It's why in the passage Kellhus tells her we get Akka's point of view and he can see how much esmi hates Kellhus.

I guess we just have different interpretations of what the end of story actually was, which obviously gives us different conclusions.

By final wedge, I mean Kelmomas killing Sorweel was what caused Kellhus to chain up Kelmomas. Then Kelmomas escapes, eventually is found by the skin spy, and ends up in the golden room. Had Sorweel's death not served that one small purpose, he as a character would have had no impact on the end story.

What did Kellhus tell Esmi not to do?

I'll admit to only reading an ARC, but it seems unlikely that the published version differs.

[Dunkelheit]

Sorweel had no impact on the end of the story. He literally did nothing that had a lasting impact on the story other than die, thereby driving the final wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas.

His invisible chorea bag lead to both Serwa and Kellhus getting salted. I guess that doesn't count as lasting impact? And why wouldn't him driving a wedge between Kellhus and Kelmomas count as lasting impact to begin with?

The Momemn story line was pointless, other than to set up Kelmomas.

In other words: not pointless. Also, the White Luck is in the Momemn story line. Which both sets up Sorweel and gives us insight into how the gods work.

Kind of seems like you are skewing the facts toward your preconceived conclusion. I get that you feel like it was pointless, but that doesn't mean it definitely was pointless. I think if you took a more objective look at the story it would be much less cut and dry than you are making it out to be.

[Cüréthañ]

But really isn't all fiction kind of pointless? In the sense that reading it serves no function except to reflect upon ourselves and a shared mythology.

Given that this middle series thematically focuses on endless greed, control for it's own sake, ignorance-of-self and nihilism as central pitfalls of the human condition - I find the bleak finale a fitting conclusion.

But as to the point of reading it? I can't speak for others or criticize their experience, but for me, it's an emotional and intellectual reflective experience and an exercise in improving comprehension that I found very satisfying.

[Madness]

Lol.

Welcome back, Blackstone .

tleilaxu, I am guilty of excessive use of acronyms and I am Canadian .

Otherwise, nothing that I currently need to add to this thread - as per generalguy I don't think my thoughts count for much.

Frustrating narrative expectations was part of the deal from the start. I was perusing ZTS for quotes the other day and people voiced basically the exact same comments regarding TTT. For my reading, TTT and TUC are the exact same book as technically structured, if the content in TUC is an order of magnitude more epic and awesome than TTT. Plenty of the "ambiguities" frustrating readers are the result of inattentive reading.

But, alas, I'm just happy to see the network grow. I care not if hate or love melds us, just that the noosphere evolves .

And, of course, the requisite *"everyone agrees that Overlook is either inept or malicious and TGO/TUC suffered for that."*