[Dora Vee]

I'm not sure what everyone means by "status quo" and "normal".

As in, pretty much every thing that goes on in Earwa during the PON and Aspect Emperor. Basically, the way things have been for quite some time. Then, there's the Damnation. I mean, it's one thing if it's like the prison system where some people will get a certain amount of time depending on the crime, but it's another for it to be eternal.

IMO, if the No-God is defeated, it'll just be more of the same things. Slavery, your life basically being robbed of you for being born in the wrong "caste", being severely punished for stupid, petty things, most people being damned anyway, etc. Really, most people born in that area are damned in life.

As for the No God, it's possible that it's very existence is what shields people from damnation, not killing a bunch of people. Maybe that's where the Inchoroi went wrong. They didn't need to kill/womb plague, they simply needed the No God to be around. Whatever the case, the No God/Consult will cause a lot of social upheaval.

That said, I'm hoping that the surviving Eärwans find a way to knock the No-God offline AND reject the temptation of Logos/Tekne.

I'm sure some will, but I suspect that most won't. Especially if they think that the Consult=better lives for them.

[BeardFisher-King]

I'm not sure what everyone means by "status quo" and "normal".

As in, pretty much every thing that goes on in Earwa during the PON and Aspect Emperor. Basically, the way things have been for quite some time. Then, there's the Damnation. I mean, it's one thing if it's like the prison system where some people will get a certain amount of time depending on the crime, but it's another for it to be eternal.

IMO, if the No-God is defeated, it'll just be more of the same things. Slavery, your life basically being robbed of you for being born in the wrong "caste", being severely punished for stupid, petty things, most people being damned anyway, etc. Really, most people born in that area are damned in life.

As for the No God, it's possible that it's very existence is what shields people from damnation, not killing a bunch of people. Maybe that's where the Inchoroi went wrong. They didn't need to kill/womb plague, they simply needed the No God to be around. Whatever the case, the No God/Consult will cause a lot of social upheaval.

That said, I'm hoping that the surviving Eärwans find a way to knock the No-God offline AND reject the temptation of Logos/Tekne.

I'm sure some will, but I suspect that most won't. Especially if they think that the Consult=better lives for them.

You're making the mistake of reading our 21st century morality concerning slavery onto a world with a different morality entirely. You're making a judgement on Eärwan society based on our morality.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the point of System Resumption is to kill a lot of people. That will indeed cause social upheaval. You're making it sound like the Consult will be issuing an Emancipation Proclamation and Medicare For All.

[MSJ]

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the point of System Resumption is to kill a lot of people. That will indeed cause social upheaval. You're making it sound like the Consult will be issuing an Emancipation Proclamation and Medicare For All.

Exactly. The NG is meant to exterminate Earwa, or any other planet it has been on. I don't see, as a human being, you can find that fascinating...

There's clues that the NG has a timer and only lasts so long. I'm truly more interested in how damnation can be stopped without the use if the NG. Kellhus is dead but not done. He had contingencies, and we know that he was for the survival of mankind. That part of the story draws me in more than anything. Reading 3 books about the awesomeness of death of a world...not so much.

[MSJ]

You're making the mistake of reading our 21st century morality concerning slavery onto a world with a different morality entirely. You're making a judgement on Eärwan society based on our morality.

And, Kellhus changed laws on slavery and such. In fact, Dora Vee, I think you're argument is inherently wrong. Its not the lowly people who are damned. The ignorant, innocent and blind are the ones who find salvation. We know this through many venues of the series, but Koringhus lays it out best.

We assume everyone is damned because that all we see. But, those like you describe, slaves and low castes are ignorant and probably have a greater chance at salvation.

Most are damned, I agree. Bakker said, "The God just needs to like you." to be saved. And, I'm sure more goes into than that. But, slaves are not the one who the Gods set their eyes on for feasting. The more sin, the juicier meal for the Gods. Its those high caste that are the big meas for the Gods.

And place yourself on Earwa, without knowledge of all we know. Do you wanna die by the No-God and bands of raping Sranc? No? I wouldn't either. These people want to live as anyone else wants to live. Even when your in worst case scenarios, you want to live. I see no argument you can place in front of me for wanting the extermination of Mankind, to be a valid one.

[Madness]

I've never read a sentence of hope in anything he's written, fiction or non-fiction. Granted, TPB is decidedly indecipherable, but what I do read (or the interviews he does), always seems firmly pessimistic regarding the future of humanity.

...

But if there's optimism in there somewhere, do point it out .

I think it's important to separate his pessimism regarding humanity's capacity for change in ways that will make our fate possibly less horrifying and pessimism regarding our fate generally.

I mean, he is pessimistic about both but almost everything I've ever read by him - especially TPB - suggests "cautionary tale" rather than "prophetic fate." As I mentioned preceding this comment, pages ago now, he spends his time in attempt to convince us not to dive headlong into "crash space/whichevery."

My flow has been interrupted as I've been informed that my precious, precious handful of hours alone are quickly due for interruption and articulation is failing (headbang).

BTW, if TSA is a story about the redemption of mankind, I'll be holding the book burning at my house.

I'll join in on any burning of Bakker's books. Nothing sells books like their being burned.

The very human struggle to do, and to strive.

+1

Glimmers of hope, despite all the hardship.

...

Its not courage if know you'll succeed.

...

TL;DR I'm a sucker and just like Bakker's writing. Earwa is cool too - I want more stories.

+1

Regarding the middle quote, I believe Bakker even has a similar epigraph.

In fact, prior to TUC, not one person would have expected TSTSNBN to be a trilogy of tales of different characters e experiencing the end their world. Not one.

I'll disagree with this .

TAE gave us Sorweel, Psatma, Malowebi, Meppa, Mimara, hell, the half-Dunyain children? I certainly didn't expect any of these characters.

Of course, TNG will have new characters/POVs. The fact that anyone would think that TNG would focus on just our established principles from PON seems very strange to me.

Plot-wise, I'm ambivalent about the fate of the characters, humanity, Earwa, Outside, etc. I would like to see Bakker taking his lines of thought further. So far, with "The Aspect-Emperor" as compared to "The Prince of Nothing", he delivered big-time. So I can't say I'm worried.

+1

I don't think we'll get much if anything from Momemn, remember it was hit by Momas. Not much left there.

Momemn is only the capital of the Kellian Empire. In the opening chapters of TUC, Esmenet even mentions gathering all the remaining Columns to Sumna. I don't see the New Empire as being defeated by a long-shot, especially given that all the Orthodox will have a hard to arguing that the Aspect-Emperor spoke false, what with the Boding across the horizon.

That's why, for the sake of sales,

Lol, going to have to stop you right there. Bakker will die penniless before he does something for sales.

Lol.

In short, my friends - it's going to be fun no matter what he cooks up and he's wise to avoid this forum so as to disallow us from fucking him up.

Classic self-deprecating Bakker. I honestly don't think we can out-think him.

Lol, going to have to stop you right there. Bakker will die penniless before he does something for sales.

Yet, his whole deal about writi g more hinges on sales. At some point he has to understand he needs some commercial viability. If not, we'll be a much community talking about this when we're walking around with a walking stick. Dozens of us. He needs to learn to make concessions.

You know, I'm not totally convinced he isn't ready to embrace obscurity entirely.

I aim to understand, not convince, generally, and learn something myself. All of things things has been accomplished - therefore, great success.

+1

To bring this back around to the original topic, if I simply gain some insight as to what the hell happened in the GR, I would be satisfied.

Lol, oh no, good sir, we are far from the original topic right now. In fact, I'm sure this conversation is why MSJ made his thread in TNG subforum.

You're making the mistake of reading our 21st century morality concerning slavery onto a world with a different morality entirely. You're making a judgement on Eärwan society based on our morality.

I think you have to unpack these assertions, BFK.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the point of System Resumption is to kill a lot of people. That will indeed cause social upheaval. You're making it sound like the Consult will be issuing an Emancipation Proclamation and Medicare For All.

Hmm... Lol, you never know. The Mutilated do have many new skin-spies and basically no one remains who can recognize them effectively (though, the Kellian Empire had distill cultural behaviours to combat disappearances and replacements). They've probably infiltrated Zeum since at least TJE - if that really was the *first* Sayothi Skin-Spy - and will find infiltrating the Three Seas much easier again in the absence of the Anasurimbor.

It'll be remarkably easy for them to spin new stories about the Consult or No-God or sabotage the resistance efforts of any given remaining human population (Sakarpus, Ordeal, Three Seas, Zeum). Though, I'm personally waiting for a load of Skin-Spies to be unleashed in combat. Fucking Cartilage-Quatropi.

On your first statement, profgrape and others have brought up that it seems the No-God's purpose is less about extermination specifically and more about "reading the code of souls" or whatever. I understand less than others seem to but there might to be something to it.

[MSJ]

I'll disagree with this .

TAE gave us Sorweel, Psatma, Malowebi, Meppa, Mimara, hell, the half-Dunyain children? I certainly didn't expect any of these characters.

Of course, TNG will have new characters/POVs. The fact that anyone would think that TNG would focus on just our established principles from PON seems very strange to me.

Show me where someone predicted that TSTSNBN would be a few Atrocity Tales about a dying world. If you can find it and quote it, I'll send you $100 cold cash. Not one time have I ever heard that predicted.

Sure, many, many a reader/poster predicted Kellhus would fail and the No-God would rise. Sure, heard it a 1000 times. Not one prediction about what we know now as TUC would be about the horribleness of a dying world. If you can show it, I back up my bet.

Of course, we will meet new characters. But, I still suspect our "main" guys to be there to the end. Esmi, Akka, Moe Jr., Mimara, I don't think Kayutas or Serwa is dead. Yet, sure, we will get Zeum, something I've been dying for. I hope we get some Eanna, more Mutilated and Bakker is great at making characters I love (never understood when people say TSA has no one to relate to, I find a little piece of myself in so many of them).

Anywho, find them predictions and ill buy ya something you need or want. Now, you've been around longer, but, I'm doubting you can find one.

[H]

On your first statement, profgrape and others have brought up that it seems the No-God's purpose is less about extermination specifically and more about "reading the code of souls" or whatever. I understand less than others seem to but there might to be something to it.

Well, the No-God does several things and possibly through something of the same mechanism(s).

One, the No-God stops the Cycle of Souls and so, is the Death of Birth (for souled creatures).  Two, the No-God somehow communicates with soulless Tekne creations (or unifies, or possibly supplants their will).  Three, the No-God is a soul cipher, somehow decoding something from each's passing that is key in permanently closing off the Outside permanently.

In reality, one and two are just means to three though.  Three is the whole purpose, once a population 144k is achieved, the code can become active and presumably function three gives way to a "fourth function" that is the actual sealing of the world once the code has been found and the population is at the proper threshold.

What the death of meaning gets at is not a death of human consciousness, or of human society (for the most part), it's the death of what we would call "Higher Meaning" in modern parlance.  This presumes that "Lower Meaning" is actually not meaningful, which you can agree or disagree with, but in Eärwa this is presumed to be true.  Let me operationalize what the difference between these are.  Let's take an example:

Aurang rapes and murders thousands and then dies.  "Higher meaning" has Aurang's soul damned.  "Lower meaning" has Aurang remembered as a bad guy (ok, really bad guy).  Without the soul, there is no conveyance of meaning beyond death.  So, if Higher Meaning is gone, so is the accounting for what Aurang did; lower meaning might write what down what he did (for example), but that will only be an account of what he did.

So, when the No-God sunders Eärwa from the Outside, whatever happens loses any eternal quality.  It loses any eternal consequence and so loses any eternal meaning.  Everything is transient and pointless, except in the mundane terrestrial sense of meat begetting more meat.  You were a righteous and pious person?  Doesn't matter, you die and there is nothing.  You were a callous and capricious person?  Doesn't matter you die and there is nothing.

The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point?  Supply your own answer, at this point.  Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state?  Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning? 

[Madness]

Show me where someone predicted that TSTSNBN would be a few Atrocity Tales about a dying world. If you can find it and quote it, I'll send you $100 cold cash. Not one time have I ever heard that predicted.

In fact, prior to TUC, not one person would have expected TSTSNBN to be a trilogy of tales of different characters e experiencing the end their world. Not one.

I was specifically disagreeing with the "different characters" part - sorry, I should have been more specific.

Of course, we will meet new characters.

This.

[TaoHorror]

Well, the No-God does several things and possibly through something of the same mechanism(s).

...

The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point?  Supply your own answer, at this point.  Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state?  Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning?

H, this has to be the most cogent explanation of TNG I've read/thought about so far - very well done, thank you!

[H]

Well, the No-God does several things and possibly through something of the same mechanism(s).

...

The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point?  Supply your own answer, at this point.  Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state?  Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning?

H, this has to be the most cogent explanation of TNG I've read/thought about so far - very well done, thank you!

The question though, is that really what the series is?  I mean, it seems most likely.  I think that might be what Bakker meant when he said there were "two ways it could go."  Or maybe I am just pulling things out of my ass...

[TLEILAXU]

Well, the No-God does several things and possibly through something of the same mechanism(s).

...

The "question" then is, what divides Humans from Sranc, at that point?  Supply your own answer, at this point.  Do humans, absent of "consequence" regress to such a "primal" state?  Do they strive to (re)create that higher meaning?

H, this has to be the most cogent explanation of TNG I've read/thought about so far - very well done, thank you!

The question though, is that really what the series is?  I mean, it seems most likely.  I think that might be what Bakker meant when he said there were "two ways it could go."  Or maybe I am just pulling things out of my ass...

It's the soul of the series, the vessel is a badass fantasy story.

[Wilshire]

Not done with this thread, only on page 11 of 18 (!).
Great commentary. Sausana and SmilerLoki, I do hope you come back and/or stick around .

Thoughts so far:
1) The threshold of the door, or actually the balcony, would be the tipping point for full possession imo. Probably the major reason for Iyokus' Ciphrang going back to hell happening on the far side of the bridge is important for that reason.
2)We have at least 1 other cipher for possession (Amiolas) and at least a few more examples of multiple souls inhabiting a body (kelmomas/samaras)
3)Kellhus entering the Golden Room - full possession seems like something he wasn't expecting. That he was planning on just scouting the room seems like it could be reasonable. Afterall, he's been happy to teleport around. Could be that once he set foot on the balcony he lost a great deal of agency.
4) "Pacts with the Pit" and "the living shall not haunt the dead" are still unclear to me.

5) Kellhus' eventual acceptance of the Darkness seems to suggest he doesn't know who is really in control, or that he know that Ajokli is controlling more than he was hoping and so he's trying to proceed with caution. Much like how Moenghus spent is last few moments back-peddling trying to rework his plan, when Kellhus comes to him Mad, yet still proceeding with it to his ultimate demise. Kellhus seemed to have ceded Ajokli the Darkness, but thought that perhaps just doing what felt right was somehow going to confound Ajokli. I attribute much of his emotions to this - rather than trying to dominate them he thought it somehow made sense at this point to just give into them (Esmi, Proyas, etc.)

6) Kellhus-Earthquake occurring before Ghost-Rider-possession is great. Given that we know Kellhus "does sorcery without doing sorcery"/"sorcery indistinguishable from the World" (without a mark, without glowing eyes, without speaking or whispering), I think this is one of those moments of Uber-Kellhus. ie one of those moments where we see what Kellhus can do. Even though the line is blurry, I still think Kellhus had plans on winning/stalling until TGO (or at least the important parts like the schoolpeople) made it to the Golden Room. That Ajokli then shows up and loses seems to be not part of the plan.
Also, thanks Madness for pointing out that if the Consult thought they could best him with sorcerous might they probably wouldn't have had 100 chorae bearing skin-spies lurking. While that seems obvious once pointed out, that hadn't occurred to me lol.

7) Ajokli 'magnetizing', or whatever controlling, the Chorae might point to the idea that all chorae are truly as Mimara sees them (not just the one we saw her see).

[MSJ]

1) The threshold of the door, or actually the balcony, would be the tipping point for full possession imo.

I don't see where you, Madness and others buy into this. It goes against the textual evidence. Malowebi does not see the. "Globules" until they are in the golden room. And that is after minutes(?) Of dialogue. That is when total possession begins. I thinks that's totally clear from the book. Where do you see Globules taking over Kellhus before then? That is when total possession occurs. Please show me evidence to the contrary. Not your thoughts, evidence from the books.

[H]

4) "Pacts with the Pit" and "the living shall not haunt the dead" are still unclear to me.

See my thoughts here (from page 7).

1) The threshold of the door, or actually the balcony, would be the tipping point for full possession imo.

I don't see where you, Madness and others buy into this. It goes against the textual evidence. Malowebi does not see the. "Globules" until they are in the golden room. And that is after minutes(?) Of dialogue. That is when total possession begins. I thinks that's totally clear from the book. Where do you see Globules taking over Kellhus before then? That is when total possession occurs. Please show me evidence to the contrary. Not your thoughts, evidence from the books.

And here I thought that full possession wasn't until his head erupted into flames...in any case, since we have no idea what would delineate partial and full possession, it will be impossible to really definitely know, one way or the other.

[MSJ]

And here I thought that full possession wasn't until his head erupted into flames...in any case, since we have no idea what would delineate partial and full possession, it will be impossible to really definitely know, one way or the other.

I agree 100% H. What I meant is that Malowwbi seeing the Globules is the beginning of the possession. When Ajokli begins to transit from the Outside to Kellhus, once in the Ark. The Globules are just the beginning. I agree, full possesion is when he stomps and Kellhus's head burst into flames. I agree.