[SmilerLoki]

That doesn't mean he still wasn't the greatest intellect to walk Earwa, it just means he makes mistakes like anyone else.

No, I agree, of those we can properly assess he was certainly the brightest (except maybe the Survivor, who didn't do much for the plot). It's that I can't in good faith make a world-encompassing generalization here, because it includes complete unknowns.

There is also, for example, a possibility of someone being insignificantly inferior to Kellhus for all narrative means and purposes. It's a way to continue the Dunsult line, which would be interesting to me.

[TaoHorror]

If the Ajokli possession was unwelcome ( I'm still in the camp he was "brought" in with him ), I wonder if Bakker would at least let us know if the Ajokli possession was made possible as a by product/cost of Kellhus's using the Daimos or the Ark was a Topos? Both, maybe a perfect storm.

[MSJ]

If the Ajokli possession was unwelcome ( I'm still in the camp he was "brought" in with him ), I wonder if Bakker would at least let us know if the Ajokli possession was made possible as a by product/cost of Kellhus's using the Daimos or the Ark was a Topos? Both, maybe a perfect storm.

Well the Ciphrang are basically a shortcut to Hell the way I see it. That's why it's not Malowebi's head there, but that of a Ciphrang. It, along with the Topos that is the Ark, gave Ajokli a very easy entry point. A backdoor, so to say.

Now. I could be wrong and Kellhus expected it to go down as such, I just didn't read it that way.

[MSJ]

No, I agree, of those we can properly assess he was certainly the brightest (except maybe the Survivor, who didn't do much for the plot). It's that I can't in good faith make a world-encompassing generalization here, because it includes complete unknowns.

But the text offers proof that Kellhus is indeed heads and above any intellect to ever set foot in Earwa. The Warrior Prophet

Within days the Prince of Atrithau was improvising new axioms, discovering theorems and formulae that Achamian had never imagined possible, let alone encountered in the classic texts. Kellhus even proved to him—proved!—that the logic of Ajencis as laid out in The Syllogistics was preceded by a more basic logic, one which used relations between entire sentences rather than subjects and predicates. Two thousand years of comprehension and insight overturned by the strokes of a stick across dust! “How?” he’d cried. “How?” Kellhus shrugged. “This is simply what I see.”

SmilerLoki, we've encountered this a couple times when discussing theories and such. Your unwillingness to give in, because of "what if's". I mean we can make up what ifs on anything. But, unfortunately, all we have is the text to go by. And, the text says Kellhus is smarter than any man who's stepped foot on Earwa.

[SmilerLoki]

SmilerLoki, we've encountered this a couple times when discussing theories and such. Your unwillingness to give in, because of "what if's". I mean we can make up what ifs on anything. But, unfortunately, all we have is the text to go by. And, the text says Kellhus is smarter than any man who's stepped foot on Earwa.

I don't see anything to give in to, and don't really see where the notion that I somehow should comes from.

We don't see Kellhus interact that much with other Dunyain (and he most certainly doesn't outmatch the Dunsult), and we have their intellectual superiority to the world-born established not even strictly plot-wise, but more setting-wise. If the text is to go by factually and not declaratively, then that superiority is unproven to me, but I accept it as the authorial intention and thus don't dispute it (maybe even in cases where it should actually be disputed). The fact that we don't see Kellhus interact with his brethren enough doesn't mean that it's not there in the plot or setting; it exists "off-screen" and is being alluded to enough times. It is there. There is no Kellhus by his lonesome, there is a race called "the Dunyain" that Kellhus belongs to: his advantages come from the traits attributed by the narrative to that race. Even being a prodigy among them doesn't mean Kellhus is that much smarter. I feel the word "prodigy" is understood strangely by many people. Being faster to learn and initially better at something doesn't mean being always better at everything.

What interests me is where Kellhus stands among other Dunyain and how big the gap is, if there is any. Those things principally exist in the narrative, what we don't know is their exact values.

I do not see how the text says that Kellhus is smarter than everyone who ever walked Earwa. I see how the intention behind the text shows his superiority to the world-born (I put the execution aside in that matter). It's there, I agree. His superiority to other Dunyain is not shown and not exhaustively stated. I don't know how exactly Bakker understands the word "prodigy", but I assume a realistic outlook, which demands that no people surpass their closest rivals by orders of magnitude, the difference is generally in one or two to fractions of a percent (which is negligible in many respects).

The other way to understand the word "prodigy" is fantastic, and in that case someone is actually smarter by orders of magnitude, Reed Richards or Tony Stark in comic books level. It can be, but the Second Apocalypse strikes me as far more realistic than that, and so I stand by my assessment until exhaustively proven otherwise.

I should also note that I feel you argue exactly for the latter (please correct me if I'm wrong!) and it clashes with how I generally perceive the series. Furthermore, I think you're jumping to overly simplistic conclusions and readings of the text on many occasions, but I also accept the possibility of being completely in the wrong myself. I don't actually argue with you, I use our discussions as means to articulate things to myself. It's unlikely I can exhaustively prove your fundamental points wrong with the information available right now, therefore I don't see why would you agree with me, which means there is no purpose in arguing. But I see no harm in presenting a different opinion for people to read.

[MSJ]

I gave you a quote that said Kellhus upended all the great philosophers and mathematicians by scribbling in the dirt. Banker has said Kellhus is a prodigy among the Dunyain. I am going by the text. You seem to not to like to do that. But rather, make up thoughts in your head and expand on them. Sorry, that's can fiction to me.

[MSJ]

Banker, fan fiction

[MSJ]

Bakker, Bakker, Bakker!!!!

[SmilerLoki]

I gave you a quote that said Kellhus upended all the great philosophers and mathematicians by scribbling in the dirt.

World-born philosophers and mathematicians. I don't see your point, unless you somehow equal world-born to the Dunyain, which is just factually wrong.

[MSJ]

World-born philosophers and mathematicians. I don't see your point, unless you somehow equal world-born to the Dunyain, which is just factually wrong.

I don't get your point. The premise was that Kellhus was the smartest man on Earwa. Period. Its backed up by that quote. I don't care if he's Dunyain or Conryinian, he is the smartest man on that planet. Hell, the Quya can't even translocate. You keep dividing your argument just instead of say I g your wrong Smilerloki. Its ok to be humble and admit when your wrong. I do it all the time.

[SmilerLoki]

I don't get your point. The premise was that Kellhus was the smartest man on Earwa. Period. Its backed up by that quote. I don't care if he's Dunyain or Conryinian, he is the smartest man on that planet. Hell, the Quya can't even translocate. You keep dividing your argument just instead of say I g your wrong Smilerloki. Its ok to be humble and admit when your wrong. I do it all the time.

The problem is, your argument lumps together the Dunyain and the world-born, and those are completely different things for the sake of our discussion.

Let's try that step by step for more clarity, shall we?

Is there a difference in intellectual abilities between the world-born and the Dunyain?

[EDIT] I also should note that I've never agreed with the way you initially formulated your argument and it's exactly what I feel we see differently. In other words, I dispute your choice of terminology. Basically, where you say "everyone", I say "the world-born" (that includes Nonmen, and even Aurax and Aurang, though they aren't born in this world), as opposed to "the Dunyain".

[MSJ]

Aurax and Aurang are world-born? The only difference is Kellhus grew up secluded, that's why he uses the phrase world born. They are still men. With the right womb, produce human babies. They are humans themselves. They've just been trained their whole lives. Yes. All Dunyain are smarter than world born. But they have "defectivess". And, Baller has made it clear that Moe, Kellhus and the Survivor are heads above the rest of the Dunyain. Its a mute argument, no matter how you want phrase it.

[SmilerLoki]

Aurax and Aurang are world-born?

For the purpose of our discussion about Kellhus's intellectual ability they are, in my opinion, on the same level as the world-born, so I roughly lumped them in the same category. I also, obviously, make a rough statement when I collate all world-born with the ones Kellhus interacts with. But since those are many different people (from Achamian to Cnaiur to Esmenet) representing many social statures and depths of intellect and education, I feel that it's 99,9% certain that if Kellhus outshines them, he outshines all the other world-born. And also my narrative spider-sense isn't tingling for that 0,01% outlier, I think it's Bakker's intent to show that Kellhus is superior to all world-born.

The only difference is Kellhus grew up secluded, that's why he uses the phrase world born. They are still men.

This is another point on which I disagree. I feel that the Dunyain's intellectual abilities (in general, and not only in Kellhus's case) are so far superior to those of the world-born that the Dunyain should be put in a separate category when intellect is discussed. This is evidenced by their different brain structure (Koringhus references it in TGO when he compares it to that of Sranc), intellects of Kellhus's children and Maithanet, and the fact that the Mutilated were able to subsume the Consult, which consisted of the brightest and most knowledgeable minds of three races.

With the right womb, produce human babies.

Doesn't it seem strange to you that Men generally don't need their wives to have "the right womb" and the Dunyain do?

Also I can't readily agree on the humanity of those babies. Though this shouldn't be taken as disagreement, too.

And, Baller has made it clear that Moe, Kellhus and the Survivor are heads above the rest of the Dunyain.

You see, I don't remember it like this at all. My understanding of his words is, they are "stronger" than the other Dunyain (it's more clear with Kellhus and less clear with his father and the Survivor, the way I recall it), but I don't interpret this "stronger" the way you do. It's like in real life between professionals in a given field, the difference, when it can be calculated, is 1-2% or even fractions of a percent, and it's negligible to any outsider, whose results would fall many times shorter.

This is why I don't see myself being wrong. We differ in our understanding of terminology and reading of the text. It's actually very curious to me, haven't you seen the possibility of such form of disagreement from the start?

[EDIT] But all of this, in retrospect, makes me understand better why you propose that Kellhus could have outmatched the Dunsult by himself. You see the Anasurimbor line and him specifically as very special, while I attribute almost all of his strengths (being arbitrary, 95-97%) to his Dunyain heritage and training.

[MSJ]

No, there is a quote from Bakker saying that they are prodigies among the Dunyain. They are the best of the best.

[SmilerLoki]

No, there is a quote from Bakker saying that they are prodigies among the Dunyain. They are the best of the best.

As I stated earlier, we probably understand the word "prodigy" very differently.

I should also add that even prodigies are not the best of the best in everything, this is completely unrealistic. Everyone has their own fields of expertise and weak sides.