[Anaxophus]

I'm sorry if there is already a thread on this (didn't see one), and I hope I [SPOILERED] everything properly.  Long time reader, first time poster...

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I believe Cet'ingira told Kellhus that ere the First Apocalypse, the Consult tried for a millennia to activate the No-God by sending untold thousands into the sarcophagus (as we see in Akka's Dreams, and it never worked until Nau-Cayûti was put inside.  This is how they knew that it wouldn't work the second time without an Anasûrimbor.  We witness this truth as Kelomomas is used to activate the Carapace.

But, is it not fairly certain that Nau-Cayûti was not an Anasûrimbor (by blood at least), but the son of Seswatha and the wife/concubine (I forget) of Celmomas II?

[Yellow]

Hi Anaxophus. My take on this was that it dispels the theory that Seswatha was Nau-Cayuti's father. Either that or the Dunsult were just plain wrong.

The question for me is whether Bakker put that in as a red herring, or if whatever is controlling Akka's dreams wants him to have thought that. I have no idea, really.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

Hi Anaxophus. My take on this was that it dispels the theory that Seswatha was Nau-Cayuti's father. Either that or the Dunsult were just plain wrong.

The question for me is whether Bakker put that in as a red herring, or if whatever is controlling Akka's dreams wants him to have thought that. I have no idea, really.

I agree, it was likely a red herring. Even if everything Akka saw in his dreams was true, just because Seswatha was having an affair with Celmomas' wife, it doesn't necessarily mean he was Nau-Cayûti's father. Akka wasn't even able to date the dream by comparing it to other dreams to see if the dates matched. It's possibly he favoured that particular interpretation due to his personal circumstances with Kellhus/Esmenet/Mimara, too.
I've also said this in another thread - when rereading PON, I noticed that Akka notes a strong resemblance between Kellhus and Celmomas (following a dream of Celmomas' death) and later a resemblance between Kellhus and Nau-Cayûti (following a dream of Seswatha and Nau-Cayûti in Golgotterath). So it can be presumed Nau-Cayûti did look like Celmomas, which is evidence in favour of him actually being his biological father, and not Seswatha.

[Anaxophus]

Thanks for the thoughts!

[TheCulminatingApe]

My take on this was that it dispels the theory that Seswatha was Nau-Cayuti's father.

The only way to square the circle, is that the kid at Ishual that Kellhus et al are descended from was not actually Ganrelka's bastard at all, but was in fact the son of Nau-Cayuti with his concubine, and then raised as Ganrelka's to protect the boy from Ieva (the wife who poisoned Nau-Cayuti).  This would mean that Seswatha can still be Nau-Cayuti's father, and that the various Dunyain can all be descended from Nau-Cayuti - but ironically none of them would not biologically be Anasurimbor.

I'm not saying this is what happened, though.  The dreams being a red herring seems more likely

[Woden]

What do you think about that this new or renewed Carapace has no chorae?
Obviously it was prepared for Kellhus, so for me that means that some way the soul or even the person inside the Carapace is still alive but trapped.
And it has another implication, without chorae in it, maybe is vulnerable to sorcery.

[Wilshire]

I have a lot of trouble dismissing the affair dream as simply a red herring. That to me smacks of over simplification because its easy. Why not throw out data that ruins your conclusion?

To me, until we figure out why Nau worked, we don't know much of anything.
Also noteworthy that they didn't use Kellhus - who they thought they needed - but rather Kelmomas, who seemed to work just fine.

So, what we know for sure, is that the Consult v1 or v2 didn't know shit about the NG and seemed to just get lucky by throwing enough shit at it until it started up.

[profgrape]

Also noteworthy that they didn't use Kellhus - who they thought they needed - but rather Kelmomas, who seemed to work just fine.

I think this was a for a couple of reasons:

1. Kellhus was pwning them until he was salted. 
2. The fact that Kelmomas was able to disrupt Ajokli was a pretty big clue to the Mutilated.  Kind of like it is to us. :-)

Agree, however, that regarding why NC we just don't know enough right now.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

I have a lot of trouble dismissing the affair dream as simply a red herring. That to me smacks of over simplification because its easy. Why not throw out data that ruins your conclusion?

To me, until we figure out why Nau worked, we don't know much of anything.
Also noteworthy that they didn't use Kellhus - who they thought they needed - but rather Kelmomas, who seemed to work just fine.

So, what we know for sure, is that the Consult v1 or v2 didn't know shit about the NG and seemed to just get lucky by throwing enough shit at it until it started up.

I originally thought it could be important when I first read TJE, but TUC made me start believing that it could be a red herring. Even if they didn't use Kellhus like they originally planned, they ended up using an Anasûrimbor anyway, and it does seem like that could be what activates it. Yes, I know I might be jumping to conclusions and my opinion might change after rereading, but given what I said above and the resemblance between Celmomas/Nau-Cayûti that I mentioned earlier, it seems more likely to me that Seswatha wasn't Nau-Cayûti's biological father after all. Of course, I might end up being proved wrong later, and there might be some other significance to the affair that I'm not seeing right now - but this is my current opinion.

[Wilshire]

As it relates to Nau and the No-God, perhaps you're right, and I/we haven't divined other consequences from that revelation

[profgrape]

As it relates to Nau and the No-God, perhaps you're right, and I/we haven't divined other consequences from that revelation

I wonder if there's some kind of inverse-causality at play here...

For example, we've seen that you're going to become the NG someday, you're invisible to the Gods even though you haven't been put in the Sarcophagus yet.  And I've wondered whether there's some kind of invulnerability granted as well; it would not only explain some of Kelmomas far-fetched deeds as well as NC (i.e. killing a Wracu). 

It's a circular argument in a way, that being the NG someday makes you the right person to be the NG someday.  But maybe that argument is exactly the sort of engine the NG needs to become alive?

[Wilshire]

As it relates to Nau and the No-God, perhaps you're right, and I/we haven't divined other consequences from that revelation

I wonder if there's some kind of inverse-causality at play here...

For example, we've seen that you're going to become the NG someday, you're invisible to the Gods even though you haven't been put in the Sarcophagus yet.  And I've wondered whether there's some kind of invulnerability granted as well; it would not only explain some of Kelmomas far-fetched deeds as well as NC (i.e. killing a Wracu). 

It's a circular argument in a way, that being the NG someday makes you the right person to be the NG someday.  But maybe that argument is exactly the sort of engine the NG needs to become alive?

Yeah, I could buy that. Time travel generally, and specifically in earwaverse "timelessness", really does make for weird arguments like that become plausible.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

As it relates to Nau and the No-God, perhaps you're right, and I/we haven't divined other consequences from that revelation

I wonder if there's some kind of inverse-causality at play here...

For example, we've seen that you're going to become the NG someday, you're invisible to the Gods even though you haven't been put in the Sarcophagus yet.  And I've wondered whether there's some kind of invulnerability granted as well; it would not only explain some of Kelmomas far-fetched deeds as well as NC (i.e. killing a Wracu). 

It's a circular argument in a way, that being the NG someday makes you the right person to be the NG someday.  But maybe that argument is exactly the sort of engine the NG needs to become alive?

Oh, I hadn't thought of that, it would definitely be interesting if Nau-Cayûti's legendary exploits (or some of them at least) resulted from his future as the No-God!

I think the No-God is circular by nature when it comes to time, it's very plausible given what we know. (No true beginning nor ending, like the Logos perhaps?)

[MSJ]

I might be mistaken, but isnt there menrion of Nayu being inhabited by Gilgoal? Or, maybe ita juat like Kel, that's what thwy juat attributed it to. But, him killing a dragon wouldnt align with rhis theory, because, the Wracu are not blind to the No-God. Itsunlike the escapades of Kel. Anyhow, i like where your going with rhis PGrape. And, there has to be some sort oof connection somewhere.

ETA: though through Akka's dreams and the dialogue of the Mutilated, it was pure luck with Nayu-Cayuti.

[Bhaal]

Profgrape, Wiltshire,

Anyone here actually thought about the ramifications of what it means that the No-God collapses Subject and Object? Those two terms are found in philosophy and psychology. Here comes another crackpot In my halfhanded understanding of them, mostly as they relate to psychology (and grammar and philosphy), is that the Subject is the unique experince of consciousness, an entity acting upon and observingthe world, while the object is the world outside, the thing observed and acted upon.

Hence, for all intents and purposes, the soul of the No-God is blind to the uniqueness of his experience and the outside world. So that's why we get all the ''Tell me. What do you see. What am I?'' I don't know all the consequences from a hypothetical collapsing of subject and object and how such a soul can still talk and have an idea of I... but it seems to me, that in a sense, (with all of Bakker writing about blindness) the No-God, by being completely blind to himself is absolutely overcome by the darkness that comes before, but he is also blind to the world.

In a metaphysical sense, such completely blindness can render the No-God invisible to the Gods and the Outside, because he is without agenticity nor awareness to the complete destruction caused by him. His lack of uniqueness of experience and blindness to the outside world is perhaps the key that allows him to be of one with the Horde and perhaps experience the world through their eyes (this seems like an eerie, dark inversion of the Thousandfold Thought? In a sense, has not the soul of the No-God grasped the Absolute as it is a soul unmoved by itself and the world?

And does complete blindness of Self and the World relieve one of all sin?