[Walter]

I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'

[MSJ]

Reply function not working, . Walter I agree, its that simple, the bolded is Ajokli. Though he begins to inhabit Kellhus before his bragadocious speech to the Mutilated. He left Kellhus when he didn't see Kel but heard his voice and new something was up. The "Kel, what are you..", then salted tells me Kellhus was wearing his own head and got salted. Regardless, his soul passed to the Outside prior to the resurrection of the No-God, so he's Outside. And, in my mind, still in the game. Kellhus is not hanging from a belt. Ajokli left him the moment Kel appeared.

[greenshift]

I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'

Don't we get examples of Kellhus doing seemingly magically acts without sorcery before the speech starts to use bold font? I don't have the book in front of me at the moment to confirm one way or the other. If so that would suggest that Ajokli was in control of Kellhus before we start seeing the bold font. Also, if the Golden room is invisible to the gods, then how would Ajokli be able to posses Kellhus without being able to observe him? As the Dunsult note he could not be seen there by the gods normally. This isn't a problem if we assume he has possessed Kellhus before he enters the room. The only other option I see is that Kellhus would somehow have needed to switch his own head with Ajokli's after being in the room without anyone noticing or commenting. I have a hard time believing that given the amount of scrutiny he is likely receiving at that time, unless...some sort of magical chicanery that we aren't privy to is at play which is somewhat unsatisfying.

And as I mentioned in earlier post, the description of a 'descending hunger' sounds A LOT like how Ajokli has been portrayed so far (raiding the granary and all). The bold font hadn't started at that point and I very strongly suspect that was Ajokli talking.

I rule out Kellhus being on the Outside by the fact that Ajokli can not find him after the salting. If Kellhus was dead and on the Outside then Ajokli could see him and there is no reason for the Cnaiur possession. Even if we suppose Cnaiur was possessed by Gilgaol instead, then that still leaves the problem as to why he can't see Kellhus on the Outside.

[MSJ]

As to Ajokli not being able to find him, I think it leans on Kellhus's mastery of the Daimos. I said in my earlier post, Kellhus's spot in the Outside is described as nothing like the hells he visited earlier. I find it concivible that he has created his own little spot in the Outside, away from the scrutiny of the 100.

[MSJ]

After the Ajokli reveal with Kellhus I immediately reconsidered his dialogue with that in mind. To me it was clear that the "descending as a hunger" comment was how Ajokli perceived himself through the Inverse Fire, not Kellhus. That fits extremely well with how we've seen Ajokli described previously. As far as I'm concerned we don't know what Kellhus himself would see when looking into the IF. It seems a common opinion on this forum to attribute the above to Kellhus, but I feel that is mistaken and I've wondered why I haven't seen the Ajokli interpretation pushed more often.

This aligns very well with my thoughts that Kellhus is indeed on the Outside, but not in the Hells. He's created his own nook and cranny away from the scrutiny of the 100. A most serene place from the dreams throughout the series.

[Madness]

Reply function not working, .

I'm not having problem but my membership category is different. Still an issue?

[MSJ]

I'm not having problem but my membership category is different. Still an issue?

This is from Quick Reply with me copying and pasting and doing the quoting. If I choose the quote feature, I just get blank where I should be able to post with the quote. Matter of fact, Quick Reply is only thing working for me.

[themerchant]

Serwe is a ciphrang as well as seen by Mimara.

[themerchant]

I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'

Don't we get examples of Kellhus doing seemingly magically acts without sorcery before the speech starts to use bold font?

We do, Kel notices that Kellhus is levitating without any sorcery, during the last whelming(last one, kellhus knew ) Which sort of reminded me of the Wheel of time, one power and true power distinction. One can be sensed one can't.

[themerchant]

No i believe the phrase is a ciphrang for serwe from Mimara's point of view.

"sees a slender Ciphrang hanging as high as the future,showering the earth with death- a witch ,wet with the fires of damnation, burns heaped upon her burns"

No real discernible difference between caps apart from No-God being all caps and bold, Cnaiur/ajokli being all caps but not bold and everyone else as bold.

[themerchant]

I don't retain page numbers just the text like Kissault(sp? Subon's groom) with the Tractate. Plus not an exact quote.

[Walter]

There's a bit earlier on where Maithanet is talking to Esme about why the Gods would be against them.  He points out that during the Apocalypse people cried out to the Gods, and the answers that they got back didn't acknowledge the No-God or his monsters at all.  I take this to mean that the Gods can act during the apocalypse, they are just rendered idiotic and bewildered by the fact that the most important thing in the world is hidden from them.

Witness Ajokli walking Cnaiur's body into the tornado, only to see nothing.  It wasn't even clear that he saw the Sranc.  They just parted around him, right?  I'm not a hundred percent clear he saw the Skin Spies, and wasn't just slamming the chorae down on general principle.

[Madness]

I don't retain page numbers just the text like Kissault(sp? Subon's groom) with the Tractate. Plus not an exact quote.

Kussalt*

*"I carry it here," taps heart*

There's a bit earlier on where Maithanet is talking to Esme about why the Gods would be against them.  He points out that during the Apocalypse people cried out to the Gods, and the answers that they got back didn't acknowledge the No-God or his monsters at all.  I take this to mean that the Gods can act during the apocalypse, they are just rendered idiotic and bewildered by the fact that the most important thing in the world is hidden from them.

Witness Ajokli walking Cnaiur's body into the tornado, only to see nothing.  It wasn't even clear that he saw the Sranc.  They just parted around him, right?  I'm not a hundred percent clear he saw the Skin Spies, and wasn't just slamming the chorae down on general principle.

+1

[TheCulminatingApe]

The Daimos is not simply about summoning Ciphrang, perhaps we should look more closely at it's metaphysical attributes.

Something I noted from the glossary

"elhusioli The daimos of excess.  As per standard Kiunnat metaphysics, souls directly move other souls, impart the imprint of daimos upon another daimos.  Some, such as terror or enthusiasm, are set apart for the dramatic nature of their effect."

It seems that there is both Daimos as sorcery, and daimos as a concept.  The Ordeal seems to experience extremes of excess, terror and enthusiasm at various times.  Does the intense emotional experiences of thousands and thousands of Ordealmen provide momentum for Kellhus or Ajokli?

Also I note the contrast with the extreme dispassion of the Dunyain, who seek to become self-moving souls

[Yellow]

Good catch. So Daimos is a principle, like Logos or ...phusis(?) - sorry, can't remember what the "physical" principle was called, as referred to by Crabicus in TGO. Also, there's the Psukhe, of course, for emotions.

This had never occurred to me before, so I just went and looked up Logos in wiki, which led me to an entry on Heraclitus, which had the following quote:

Ethos anthropoi daimon, "character is fate"

This influential quote by Heraclitus "ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δαίμων" (DK 22B119) has led to numerous interpretations. Whether in this context, "daimon" can indeed be translated to mean "fate" is disputed; however, it lends much sense to Heraclitus' observations and conclusions about human nature in general. While the translation with "fate" is generally accepted as in Kahn's "a man's character is his divinity", in some cases, it may also stand for the soul of the departed.

So I take it the daimos is the principle or nature of souls and the Outside. And the Daimos as a sorcery technique is simply the mastery of the daimos as a principle.