[MSJ]

Here is Locke's post at Westeros. I find it brilliant.

Okay, but you all realize that everything I've ever written on the series is always already wrong, right?

But let's just try and stick to the text, I'm sure as I craft this post that it will go off the rails eventually, it usually does.

But be aware, I just started Stranger Things, and I'm writing this damn post instead of watching episode 2, so sacrifices for you people are being made.

  Quote
Men, who belong to nature, apprehend their nature as Law when it seems to them to be restrained, and as nature when it seems to them to be unruly.

This is the chapter header for the first Momemn chapter of TGO, think of it in terms of TWLW and Kelmomas and how the pair of them walk "the only path" to achieving yatwer's goal of killing Kellhus (with earthquake, ceiling chorae, broken sword shard etc)

the explanation, however comes from chapter six.

  Quote
“Witness!” an old crone shrieked. “Witnessss!”

SECTION CHANGE

pulse slowed until beaten by a different heart. His breath deepened until drawn by different lungs. Watching with the constancy of the dead, Anasûrimbor Kelmomas settled into the grooves of another soul …

If it could be called such.

  Quote
Only now could he see how wrong he had been— that this diversity had been apparent only, an illusion of his ignorance. How could he not think Men various and strange when Men were his only measure?

 

Now the boy knew better. Now he knew that every human excess, every bloom of manner or passion, radiated from a single, blind stem. For this man— the assassin that had somehow surprised Uncle Holy— had paced out the true beam of possible and impossible acts.

And it was not human … Not at all.

 

Bold mine, italics are original, but think on this, Kelmomas in, mapping the vagaries of the WLW is--as he is saying here--bypassing all the human noise and getting a direct feed of pure id signal.

This should be very valuable to even a half dunyain, as what Kellhus struggles with most from the prologue of book one is decomposing the signal and the noise whilst interacting with the world and with humans.

Note to, that Bakker deliberately primes the audience by ending one section with a repetition of the word Witness. The next section is all about Kelmomas watching--witnessing. and note to that in priming the audience with WITNESS repetition at the end of the section it is actually Psatma making the repetition--Psatma of course is responsible for the existence of the WLW and it is important to keep in mind the value that she (and her goddess) places on WITNESS WITNESS(!!!), because the same should hold true of WLW. this is all direct text stuff, and seems very obvious how it is very carefully structured to make the reader hyper aware of the process of Witnessing of watching and of course you can't have a watcher without a watched. (however dividing up signifier and signified into pardigmatic and syntygmatic realtionships is probably too flattening a thing to get into, I think the close reading (not the author) is dead anyway, so bollucks to everyone).

but digression into christian metz aside, back to the text, what happens when the prince tries to witness

  Quote
For all his gifts, the young Prince-Imperial had yet to learn the disease that was contemplation, how more often than not it was ignorance of alternatives that made bold action bold. He spied upon the Narindar, matching him immobility for immobility, pulling every corner of his being into the straight line that was the assassin’s soul— every corner, that is, save his intellect, which asked again and again, How can I end her? with the relentlessness of an insect. He lay unblinking, the taste of dust upon his tongue, scarcely breathing, peering between interleaved fronds of iron, raging at his twin, ranting, and even, on occasion, weeping for the unbearable injustice. And so he spun within a motionless frame, pondering, until pondering so polluted his pondering he could bear ponder no more!

He would marvel at it afterward, how the mere act of plotting Thelli’s murder had all but assured her survival. How all the scenarios, all the spitting disputes and aggrandizing declamations, had been a mere pretext for this eerie war of immobility he had undertaken against the Narindar … Issiral.

 

Kelm is clearly in the straight line that the narindar walks, because he is quite literally behind the Narindar when the narindar goes to kill kellhus he is literally on the straight line of the perfect path to killing kellhus. He's not so much in the narindar's wake, as he is a clone of the narindar's path, thus he is never outside that path, so the narindar does not account for kelmomas because kelmoms is functionally the same thing.

Note how he runs into a basic science paradox with trying to kill theli: the act of observation (planning) results in the changing the thing that was observed. This is why he was unsuccessful, he could not control the variables.

The WLW is like a science experiment because the WLW is like a control, there is nothing that varies, incredibly valuable to a dunyain. Kelmomas does need an unmasking room of faces to isolate the variables of the musculature of the face, because he has the control--the WLW--to study, and he can compare all against it.

And if in witnessing kelmomas changes it, then perhaps we have an answer for why the WLW failed: because observation changed the object being studied.

  Quote
After endless watches of blank reverie, utter inactivity, the man would simply … do something. Piss. Eat. Take ablution, or on occasion, his leave. Kelmomas would lay watching, his body senseless for being so long inert, suddenly the man would … move. It was as shocking as stone leaping to life, for nothing betrayed any prior will or resolution to move, no restlessness, no impatience borne of anticipation … nothing. The Narindar would just be moving, exiting the door, stalking the frescoed corridors, and Kelmomas would scramble, cursing his prickling limbs. He would fly after him through the very walls … And then, for no apparent reason, the assassin would simply … stop. It was narcotic for simply being so strange. Several days passed before Kelmomas realized that no one … no one … ever witnessed the man acting this way. In the presence of others he would be remote, taciturn, act the way a terrifying assassin should, always careful to assure the others of his humanity, if nothing more. Several times it was Mother who encountered him, coming about a corner, through a door. And no matter what she said, if she said anything at all (for in certain company she would rather not encounter the man at all), he would simply nod wordlessly, then return to his room, and stand … Motionless. Issiral ate. He slept. He shat. His shit stank. The general terror of the slaves was to be expected, as was the hatred of Uncle Holy’s many intimates at the Imperial Court. But what was more remarkable still was the degree to which the man went unnoticed, how he would sometimes tarry in one spot, unseen, only to inexplicably pace five steps to his left, or his right, where he would stand unseen as a gaggle of scullery slaves passed teasing and whispering.

 

This describes a self moving soul. The dunyain seek a self-moving soul.

followed by:

  Quote
The enigma soon began to tyrannize the Prince-Imperial’s thoughts. He started dreaming of his vigils, reliving the stark discipline that occupied his days, except that when his body turned about to slip back in the labyrinthine tunnels, his soul would somehow remain fixed by the louvres, and he would simultaneously watch and crawl away, riven by a horror that plucked him to his very vein, the World shrieking as the face in the flint turned and ever so slowly swivelled up to match his incorporeal look—

 

there's a similarity here in the disassociation of body and soul to Kellhus' flashbacks to training "the logos is without beginning or end"

Kelmomas is being shaped... trained.

by whom?

well the chapter continues:

  Quote
“The greatest of the Narindar, those possessing the blackest hearts … those they say become their mission, indistinguishable from Death. They act not of will, but of necessity, never knowing, always doing that which must be done …” A Vessel of Ajokli."

Why do you refuse to remember? The boy paused in the black. Remember what?

Your Whelming.

He continued his ascent through the cracks of his hallow house. I remember.

Then you remember that beetle …

So? The Gods court us …

And in his soul’s eye he could see Him standing opposite, Immortal Malice, smoking with the density of Creation …

 

hmm? We go from a section that ends on "A VESSEL OF AJOKLI" speaking of course about WLW, to a section of KELMOMAS pondering the ways in which HE is a vessel of ajokli. There's even a bit about how Kelmomas generally thinks of himself as a hero. and of course, once Kelmomas recognizes himself as the Vessel of Ajokli (not WLW), he seeings Ajokli himself as the quote I ended right there.(soul's eye is always tip-off language, I think)

So what happens in the paragraphs following him seeing Ajokli?

  Quote
And in his soul’s eye he could see Him standing opposite, Immortal Malice, smoking with the density of Creation … Her face snapped toward him— the shock fairly knocked him from his skin. But she looked through him— for an instant it seemed the horror of his dream had been made real, that he hung as vision only, something incorporeal … Insubstantial. But she squinted, her eyes baffled by the lantern glare, and he realized that she saw nothing for limits that were all her own. Kelmomas shrank into the blackness, slipped about the corner.

“Drafts,” Mother explained absently.

 

 

So. Look at that, upthread we have Kelmomas observe the WLW "But what was more remarkable still was the degree to which the man went unnoticed, how he would sometimes tarry in one spot, unseen," and then we end with Kelmomas performing PRECISELY this exact trick, his mother is unable to see him.

Answer, Kelmomas is the vessel of Ajokli, just as WLW is a vessel of Yatwer. and he can achieve the same things. It doesn't matter if he walks the pure beam of WLW's soul or not, we are supposed to understand that long before the climax of the book that Kelmomas is the same thing as the WLW.

  Quote
With every breath he hewed nearer oblivion, face numb, head thick with recent sobs, his eyes two scratches soothed. Gratitude held him … His own Unerring Grace.

That night he dreamed the same dream of the Narindar. This time the man took two instant strides to stand immediately below the grill, leapt, and skewered his eye.

 

earlier in the chapter, the power of the WLW to kill Maithanet is named as the "UNERRING GRACE" Here kelmomas declares for the reader that he has the same power.

The entire chapter six seems to me to methodically spell out extremely clearly what it is Kelmomas is / is becoming and offers a clear explanation for how he will walk a pure path unseen by WLW, because he is the same as WLW.

Eta: excuse my laziness in quoting where it says quote. Nonetheless, those are direct quotes from TGO.

[BeardFisher-King]

I agree about the importance of this chapter; I reread it often. I put the adjective "senseless" in quotation marks deliberately. And I take your point that Koringhus did have a reason for his leap. For me, the leap is a rejection of Dûnyain philosophy, based on his apprehension of the Judging Eye and its relationship to the Absolute.

If I were to replace the word "senseless" with the term "anti-rational", perhaps my point would be clearer. But I do see the logic of MSJ's view of the leap being reasonable based on Koringhus' apprehension of the Judging Eye.

Well, the whole thing is framed at how the Logos (i.e. rational logic, meaning based on logic) is flawed though, right?

So, Koringhus embraces the paradox that the rational thing to do in the face of the unrational (the Eye) is an anti-rational action (suicide)?

Yes, exactly. It's the "sideways step". Or I think we could phrase it this way:

"Koringhus embraces the paradox that the moral thing to do in the face of the amoral (the Judging Eye/the Absolute) is an immoral action (suicide)."

[BeardFisher-King]

[
I agree about the importance of this chapter; I reread it often. I put the adjective "senseless" in quotation marks deliberately. And I take your point that Koringhus did have a reason for his leap. For me, the leap is a rejection of Dûnyain philosophy, based on his apprehension of the Judging Eye and its relationship to the Absolute.

If I were to replace the word "senseless" with the term "anti-rational", perhaps my point would be clearer. But I do see the logic of MSJ's view of the leap being reasonable based on Koringhus' apprehension of the Judging Eye.

I see where coming from. It could very well be his rejection of Dunyain principles, I'm quite sure it is. But, he only abandoned those principles when he apprehended the JE. So, I say they go hand in hand.

Agreed.

[H]

Yes, exactly. It's the "sideways step". Or I think we could phrase it this way:

"Koringhus embraces the paradox that the moral thing to do in the face of the amoral (the Judging Eye/the Absolute) is an immoral action (suicide)."

The semantics here get real sticky, real quick.  I think I would agree, except that I don't think the Eye is amoral (that is without morals) but rather supra-moral, in the sense they it is beyond human morality, it is actual meta-physical morality itself.

That makes sense in my head, but I think I lack the language to express it.  Perhaps this quote from some random page on the internet:

The Good is now disengaged, in the fullness of its meaning, more decisively and more forcefully than with Socrates. At the summit of beings and of eternal archetypes, beyond the shadows of becoming, it is the light which nourishes the eternal contemplation of the Gods, whom Plato in the Laws{1} regards as the souls which control the revolution of the Firmament. All that which we call good is so only by participation in this subsistent Good, which is at the same time the sovereign metaphysical Good of the universe, and the ideal moral good of human life, for the most fundamental tendency of Platonic ethics seems to be not, doubtless, to suspend the moral from the supra-moral as Christianity was to do -- that is, as a matter of principle and universally -- but to do so at least for the sage (and for him alone). It is from a supra-morality concerned with the conditions and laws of ascetic and mystical progress toward the Transcendent (and from which are derived the moral virtues in him whom wisdom puts in harmony with divine measures) that the sage descends to the world of men to teach them morality and to make them practice it (if they were not so mad) in governing their political life. The good does not belong to the empirical world, or belongs to it only as a reflection. And our knowledge of the subsistent Good is rather divination than knowledge, because it is beyond everything, even, as we remarked above, beyond being.

So, the Eye is beyond "good" or "evil" and, in fact, that is what gives it it's moral vantage point: being the fount of all morality.  It goes back to Zero, how they zero point is the origin, but also not in the continuum, yet at the same time at all points.

Then again, I am not particularly smart, so maybe this is nonsense.

[MSJ]

So, the Eye is beyond "good" or "evil" and, in fact, that is what gives it it's moral vantage point: being the fount of all morality.  It goes back to Zero, how they zero point is the origin, but also not in the continuum, yet at the same time at all points.

Then again, I am not particularly smart, so maybe this is nonsense.

What I found interesting, is when Bakker was asked if the JE is actually showing the objective truth of Earwa, he declined to answer. That leaves it open to speculation. Though, I tend to think that it is showing the truth.

[BeardFisher-King]

Yes, exactly. It's the "sideways step". Or I think we could phrase it this way:

"Koringhus embraces the paradox that the moral thing to do in the face of the amoral (the Judging Eye/the Absolute) is an immoral action (suicide)."

The semantics here get real sticky, real quick.  I think I would agree, except that I don't think the Eye is amoral (that is without morals) but rather supra-moral, in the sense they it is beyond human morality, it is actual meta-physical morality itself.

That makes sense in my head, but I think I lack the language to express it.  Perhaps this quote from some random page on the internet:

The Good is now disengaged, in the fullness of its meaning, more decisively and more forcefully than with Socrates. At the summit of beings and of eternal archetypes, beyond the shadows of becoming, it is the light which nourishes the eternal contemplation of the Gods, whom Plato in the Laws{1} regards as the souls which control the revolution of the Firmament. All that which we call good is so only by participation in this subsistent Good, which is at the same time the sovereign metaphysical Good of the universe, and the ideal moral good of human life, for the most fundamental tendency of Platonic ethics seems to be not, doubtless, to suspend the moral from the supra-moral as Christianity was to do -- that is, as a matter of principle and universally -- but to do so at least for the sage (and for him alone). It is from a supra-morality concerned with the conditions and laws of ascetic and mystical progress toward the Transcendent (and from which are derived the moral virtues in him whom wisdom puts in harmony with divine measures) that the sage descends to the world of men to teach them morality and to make them practice it (if they were not so mad) in governing their political life. The good does not belong to the empirical world, or belongs to it only as a reflection. And our knowledge of the subsistent Good is rather divination than knowledge, because it is beyond everything, even, as we remarked above, beyond being.

So, the Eye is beyond "good" or "evil" and, in fact, that is what gives it it's moral vantage point: being the fount of all morality.  It goes back to Zero, how they zero point is the origin, but also not in the continuum, yet at the same time at all points.

Then again, I am not particularly smart, so maybe this is nonsense.

No, I think that "supra-moral" is the better word, especially since "amoral" has gradually become synonymous with "immoral".

Hey, I'm N.P.S. also! When I discuss philosophy, I'm in the featherweight class.

[MSJ]

So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

[Cuttlefish]

This is all a very interesting discussion. But, doesn't Koringgus basically show us that the Absolute is false?

No, he realizes that the Dûnyain conception of the Absolute, as being a passive concept waiting to be reached is wrong. The Absolute already exists and already judges/shows judgement. Meanwhile, the worldborn are wrong in thinking that it has a human personality. What Koringhus thinks seems largely in conjuction with Kellhus's description of God of Gods to Proyas, so I think we can assume that, with both Dûnyain having reached the same conclusion through different paths, it's bound to be true.

Koringhus also realizes something both Moenghus and Kellhus already knew - that the brethren are not immune to the Legion Within. That's why he saved the defective, because it was his son, because he had a natural urge to save his own son. I think his "senseless" jump is largely in relation to this - he fully gives up on the Dûnyain Shortest Path, and surrenders to his urges, which push him towards the Absolute, in death.

Also, on the subject of Narindar, I don't quite see how the vessel of Ajokli could be self-moving, seeing that Ajokli moves him; or how the observer effect changes his routines. I am not quite convinced that the self-moving soul, the Absolute, could be physical at all - after all, the meat of the world is still subject to the Dûnyain principles of cause and effect.

[BeardFisher-King]

So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

I have to confess that my interest in Kelmomas is limited to awaiting his long-overdue comeuppance. But given that Ajokli is the Trickster God, it would make sense for him to take an interest in a megalomaniacal psychopath like Kelmomas. I fear the last laugh will be had by Ajokli at Kelmomas' expense.

What do you make of Kelmomas' dream of Issaril leaping and skewering his eye? A warning from Ajokli? From Yatwer?

[Monkhound]

So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

I was struck by the concept of the Narindar being a teacher for Kelmomas. I hadn't thought of that before, but I does make sense.

Also, we know the moment Koringhus realises the Dunyain mistake: It's the moment he sees his future self laying dead in the canyon, watched by Akka and Mimara. I think seeing himself dead is the reason he may have jumped.

[Wilshire]

So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

For the same reason I think that people who love to talk about Bakker and his books should do so on a medium dedicated to it, I think that if you want to talk to locke you should talk to him where he's at. Maybe other's feel the same way? By all means though, discuss as you will.
Great stuff in that post though. Miss him .

[BeardFisher-King]

Also, we know the moment Koringhus realises the Dunyain mistake: It's the moment he sees his future self laying dead in the canyon, watched by Akka and Mimara. I think seeing himself dead is the reason he may have jumped.

I missed that; kudos on your close reading, Monkhound. I'm not sure that vision answers the  "Why?" of Koringhus' leap, though.

[MSJ]

So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

I have to confess that my interest in Kelmomas is limited to awaiting his long-overdue comeuppance. But given that Ajokli is the Trickster God, it would make sense for him to take an interest in a megalomaniacal psychopath like Kelmomas. I fear the last laugh will be had by Ajokli at Kelmomas' expense.

What do you make of Kelmomas' dream of Issaril leaping and skewering his eye? A warning from Ajokli? From Yatwer?

Huh, actually I never  thought much of it other than the imagination of a paranoid child. Remember,  he is scared to death of the WLW in the beginning.

[MSJ]

So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

For the same reason I think that people who love to talk about Bakker and his books should do so on a medium dedicated to it, I think that if you want to talk to locke you should talk to him where he's at. Maybe other's feel the same way? By all means though, discuss as you will.
Great stuff in that post though. Miss him .

I know he took a hiatus from all forms of social medium during the election and after for a bit. He's only posted a couple times over there, I'm sure he'll find his way back. I understand your stance though.

[MSJ]

Cuttlefish, where does Koringhus equate the JE with the Absolute?

ETA: when I'm wrong, I have no problem saying as much. So I went reading through the Koringhus chapters where he apprehended the JE and came across this.

This, Sister … This is why I bare my throat to the blade of your judgment. This is why I would make myself your slave. For short of death, you, Anasûrimbor Mimara, wife-daughter of Anasûrimbor Kellhus, who is also my father … you, Sister, are the Shortest Path. The Absolute dwells within your Gaze. You … a frail, worldborn slip, heavy with child, chased across the throw of kings and nations, you are the Nail of the World, the hook from which all things hang. Thus do I kneel before it, awaiting, accepting, death or illumination—it does not matter which … So long as I am at last known.