[Cuttlefish]

Did I mention that I don't care for Mimara, at all?

Why's that? Is she your least favorite character?

I found her a bit tedious to read, and couldn't find anything to like about her. Characters who reach relevance in the world of Earwa all have things that justify their relevance - and usually, it's intellect. With Mimara, she is just handed a method to play a part in the story, as if a character like her absolutely needed to be in the story. I guess it's kind of like that with Sorweel as well, but him I liked a lot, because he is arguably the most human, the most normal guy in the whole series. That doesn't usually make for an interesting character, but in a setting where everyone is a philosopher-king, it's interesting to have a guy who just misses his dead parents, falls for a girl who doesn't care for him, and is trying to make sense of things beyond his control.

 I can't say I care much for the concept of the Judging Eye, either. This is just my general preference, but I don't like it when some new, game-changing concept is introduced every once in a while, to a series. I think it's best when the general rules of the setting are laid out early on, and any progression on them is gradual as opposed to "and here's this wholly new thing!" What guarantee is there that the next book won't introduce some new, incredibly weird game-changing concept that takes the story in a wholly different direction?

[MSJ]

But, that's not the case. The Judging Eye was the first book of this series. This series is separate from PoN in a sense. So, the whole premise of it being thrown into the plot out of nowhere is bogus. It's the central theme of TAE, a way to show us damnation, and ultimately the metaphysics of the world. Mimara was even introduced in PoN and I had the feeling that should would pop up later. And, imo, she is a extremely dynamic character, to say the least.

[Madness]

I can't say I care much for the concept of the Judging Eye, either. This is just my general preference, but I don't like it when some new, game-changing concept is introduced every once in a while, to a series. I think it's best when the general rules of the setting are laid out early on, and any progression on them is gradual as opposed to "and here's this wholly new thing!" What guarantee is there that the next book won't introduce some new, incredibly weird game-changing concept that takes the story in a wholly different direction?

Not here or there in this conversational context but I actually find this to be one of the truly remarkably things about Bakker's work. I've made the argument that every new book in the series has some such 'layer of revelation' therein. To me, it's impressive how much Bakker layered into the books from TDTCB onward, especially given how I think he's sharpened his writer's voice over the intervening years.

[themerchant]

I thought Mimara got the judging eye cause Bakker was following the branches of knowledge assigned in the bible, females have intuitive knowledge and males another type which I can't remember at the moment.

Not sure of Judging eye is mentioned in the first series, or it's just the world soul concept.

Although i can remember some comment about modern fantasy and someone saying if the Lord of Rings was written now we'd not even know about the ring till the final chapters, and I think there is some truth to that certainly.

I remember reading very early on that Bakker was trying to do a metaphysical whodunnit so that tempers my want for more information.

[Wilshire]

I found her a bit tedious to read, and couldn't find anything to like about her. Characters who reach relevance in the world of Earwa all have things that justify their relevance - and usually, it's intellect. With Mimara, she is just handed a method to play a part in the story, as if a character like her absolutely needed to be in the story. I guess it's kind of like that with Sorweel as well, but him I liked a lot, because he is arguably the most human, the most normal guy in the whole series. That doesn't usually make for an interesting character, but in a setting where everyone is a philosopher-king, it's interesting to have a guy who just misses his dead parents, falls for a girl who doesn't care for him, and is trying to make sense of things beyond his control.

 I can't say I care much for the concept of the Judging Eye, either. This is just my general preference, but I don't like it when some new, game-changing concept is introduced every once in a while, to a series. I think it's best when the general rules of the setting are laid out early on, and any progression on them is gradual as opposed to "and here's this wholly new thing!" What guarantee is there that the next book won't introduce some new, incredibly weird game-changing concept that takes the story in a wholly different direction?

Awesome, thanks for the response - I can see where you're coming from, and that's a pretty well reasoned criticism. I'm in way too deep at this point to properly criticise the books, so I'm always glad to hear what other people think about it.

The Judging Eye (TJE) was definitely dropped on us in the second trilogy, and I can understand why that would be irritating to some. But, is it really different than any of the other revelations somehow? The Aspect Emperor (TAE) really does this kind of thing a lot. TJE for one, but also the 'holy' chorae, or physical manifestations of Gods like the Narindar/Yatwer/etc.? Through TGO we get a lot more, the Nuke thing, the Tall, etc. Those were all really big reveals to me.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just trying to figure out what makes TJE especially irritating.



Thinking on it, if you find TJE an irritating plot device, your dislike of Mimara as a whole makes a lot of sense. I think it adds an interesting dimension to her character, but without it, she would be very frustrating to follow. You mention Sorweel, which is a great comparison, but while Sorweel has been cowed by his interactions with the supernatural and somehow humanized, Mimara has become this  prophet character which makes her more frustrating.
Its similar to how I feel about Esmi. Her whole doddering mother / Empress dichotome seems a little contrived to me. I don't like reading her POVs because she's a stressed wreck of a human - and while its not really her fault, I still don't like it.

[BeardFisher-King]

I can't say I care much for the concept of the Judging Eye, either. This is just my general preference, but I don't like it when some new, game-changing concept is introduced every once in a while, to a series. I think it's best when the general rules of the setting are laid out early on, and any progression on them is gradual as opposed to "and here's this wholly new thing!" What guarantee is there that the next book won't introduce some new, incredibly weird game-changing concept that takes the story in a wholly different direction?

I sympathize with your feelings of frustration over the introduction of "game-changing" concepts, but I think in an incredibly dense world- building series such as TSA, part of the narrative arc has to include the introduction of such concepts. It's important to consider that in a realistic sub-creation such as Eärwa, the knowledge of the characters is limited. Discoveries are made. Events occur. At the beginning of PoN, only the Mandate believe that the Consult still exists.

Imho, TUC will blow our minds with game-changing concepts.

[Wilshire]

in an incredibly dense world- building series such as TSA, part of the narrative arc has to include the introduction of such concepts.

IMO it really comes down to two distinct pieces.
One, people already complain about TDTCB a difficult hurdle. That whole book is almost entirely world-building, which slows it down considerably, and people struggle to keep up. Beyond that, Bakker then bakes in the world-building as much as possible throughout, so the series just grows in grows. Any more shoved into TDTCB and no one would finish it

Two, the slow drip of information is a massive part of the story. The ignorance and lack of knowledge of all the characters makes the world seem more real - at least to me. You have to read the whole thing before you know most of whats going on, and I suspect even after that there will be plenty that is left shrouded. The story just isn't built to give you all the information up front, and I think its better for that.

If that's bothersome, there's no getting around it.  I think there's going to be a satisfying reward at the end of the road for those that make it.

[BeardFisher-King]

in an incredibly dense world- building series such as TSA, part of the narrative arc has to include the introduction of such concepts.

IMO it really comes down to two distinct pieces.
One, people already complain about TDTCB a difficult hurdle. That whole book is almost entirely world-building, which slows it down considerably, and people struggle to keep up. Beyond that, Bakker then bakes in the world-building as much as possible throughout, so the series just grows in grows. Any more shoved into TDTCB and no one would finish it

Two, the slow drip of information is a massive part of the story. The ignorance and lack of knowledge of all the characters makes the world seem more real - at least to me. You have to read the whole thing before you know most of whats going on, and I suspect even after that there will be plenty that is left shrouded. The story just isn't built to give you all the information up front, and I think its better for that.

If that's bothersome, there's no getting around it.  I think there's going to be a satisfying reward at the end of the road for those that make it.

I couldn't agree more, W. Add to your observations the unreliability of the various POV's, and you're left with a stew of confusion and authorial misdirection.

Myself, I find TDTCB the easiest read, since the world-building is done in comparatively broad strokes. But that just indicates how difficult I find the following books. 

[geoffrobro]

At first I thought you guys were talking about THE the concept not the book.
Mimara is a wreak of a person and the irritation to me personally when reading her is like listening to a friend shit in their parents bcuz they couldn't get their way.
In various parts in the series it's hinted that the witness is what makes the crime, not the action. By that logic mimara may be the greatest threat to existence bcuz she see everything to be damned.
And bcuz of her life struggles and her "placement" in life she has been setup to view the world in a Nansur perspective.
Most things she has deemed damned is bcuz of her Nansur heritages ideas. What Nansur God looks from behind her eyes.

[MSJ]

At first I thought you guys were talking about THE the concept not the book.
Mimara is a wreak of a person and the irritation to me personally when reading her is like listening to a friend shit in their parents bcuz they couldn't get their way.
In various parts in the series it's hinted that the witness is what makes the crime, not the action. By that logic mimara may be the greatest threat to existence bcuz she see everything to be damned.
And bcuz of her life struggles and her "placement" in life she has been setup to view the world in a Nansur perspective.
Most things she has deemed damned is bcuz of her Nansur heritages ideas. What Nansur God looks from behind her eyes.

Well, she sees herself as holy and we certainly know that isn't how she views herself. What sucks about equating damnation and the JE is all the people that she is around are damned and it's a small sample size of scalpers, wizards and ancient Nonman. Another example would be the chorae. When she sees it through the Eye it is pure and holy. When she looks at it sans Eye, it's a dark pit of a thing (I am obviously paraphrasing). Yes, there is a chance that her worldview effects the Eye. But, as the series goes on, I find it more and more unlikely.

[geoffrobro]

At first I thought you guys were talking about THE the concept not the book.
Mimara is a wreak of a person and the irritation to me personally when reading her is like listening to a friend shit in their parents bcuz they couldn't get their way.
In various parts in the series it's hinted that the witness is what makes the crime, not the action. By that logic mimara may be the greatest threat to existence bcuz she see everything to be damned.
And bcuz of her life struggles and her "placement" in life she has been setup to view the world in a Nansur perspective.
Most things she has deemed damned is bcuz of her Nansur heritages ideas. What Nansur God looks from behind her eyes.

Well, she sees herself as holy and we certainly know that isn't how she views herself. What sucks about equating damnation and the JE is all the people that she is around are damned and it's a small sample size of scalpers, wizards and ancient Nonman. Another example would be the chorae. When she sees it through the Eye it is pure and holy. When she looks at it sans Eye, it's a dark pit of a thing (I am obviously paraphrasing). Yes, there is a chance that her worldview effects the Eye. But, as the series goes on, I find it more and more unlikely.

But we know for a fact chorae aren't holy objects. She sees it as holy bcuz that is what she has been told all her life. Sorcerers are damned cuz she's been told that all her life by Anoini. The people most scared of sorcery. She has been told the Scylvendi are damned bcuz she grew up in the nasurium where they are the meaning of evil. Even though she technically has met the most "holy" person, a man who has a guaranteed spot in the outside. A prince of hell.

[MSJ]

But we know for a fact chorae aren't holy objects. She sees it as holy bcuz that is what she has been told all her life. Sorcerers are damned cuz she's been told that all her life by Anoini. The people most scared of sorcery. She has been told the Scylvendi are damned bcuz she grew up in the nasurium where they are the meaning of evil. Even though she technically has met the most "holy" person, a man who has a guaranteed spot in the outside. A prince of hell.

Well, you could very well be right and I won't be one to claim I know what's what on Earwa metaphysically. But, if she views a chorae as something empty, a dark pit without the Eye, I'm taking that as her view. Doesn't matter what she's been told, to me. She has her own thoughts. Using your same logic, she is a woman, and also a whore. Which, going by Nansur worldviews are next to Sorcerors as being most damned. She has also been told this her whole life. So, why wouldn't this same hold true when she sees herself with the JE? That's where that falls apart.

[Wilshire]

Mimara seeing herself as holy was probably done intentionally to combat this very argument. Without that piece of information, there's not much to defend the idea that TJE is objective in some way.

But given her self loathing, self hatred, upbringing, and teaching of the church, she is literally the last person who would see herself as Holy. She is even disgusted,  or at least concerned, when she sees her image.

What's all this talk about normal people thinking Chorae being holy? They were derived from the Aporos, which is not just sorcery but Nonmen exclusive, and produced by the Inchoroi. They don't exactly have a lineage for holiness.
The thousand temples uses them to kill sorcerers, so they are a useful tool. 'Tears of God' , yeah, but they are still blasphemous objects. If people in the three seas think they are holy objects, I've definetly forgotten any references to that effect.
Objects of enourmous importance, vastly expensive to obtain, and extremely useful to killing schoolmen, but holy?

[MSJ]

Well, I don't think that what anyone thinks has an effect on the JE. It's used as an objective viewpoint on morality in Earwa. So, the notion that what Mimara thinks means that's what the JE will see is a non-starter, for me. That's what I was arguing about.

[Wilshire]

I agree with you there.