[MSJ]

I do think the Ordeal is a throw away, but not entirely.  The Ordeal matters, but only the Few among them.  The rest are only there to deliver them.  We are literally told this in WLW.  And as MSJ points out, the Ordeal's journey becomes Holy.  In other words, they are on a holy quest.  The end is something holy.  My guess is that Kellhus installs himself as the True Solitary God, or some such.  Probably through the same means as the No-God is made.  This is why he needs to get to Golottereth.  This may be why he didn't outright kill Meppa?  Water will later become, literally Holy?

Right. So we know that whatever comes about it's going to be Holy. So, to me, we can stop the nonsense about Kellhus wanting to join the Consult and be the No-God. That doesn't fit with whatever make this holy.

I am a firm believer in the "Akka will kneel" bit. I don't think Kellhus survives the GO, at least as far as going on living. He may indeed become The God or something like that.

[spacemost]

Kellhus' modus operandi since leaving Ishual has been absorbing and synthesizing the useful aspects of everything he encounters, whether it was individual people, the religious culture of the three seas, the sorcerous schools, the first Holy War, etc. I would be amazed if Kellhus didn't do the same with the Consult and the tekne - absorb, disintegrate, reintegrate - but I wouldn't say that's the same as him 'joining' the Consult or becoming the No-God.

[MSJ]

Kellhus' modus operandi since leaving Ishual has been absorbing and synthesizing the useful aspects of everything he encounters, whether it was individual people, the religious culture of the three seas, the sorcerous schools, the first Holy War, etc. I would be amazed if Kellhus didn't do the same with the Consult and the tekne - absorb, disintegrate, reintegrate - but I wouldn't say that's the same as him 'joining' the Consult or becoming the No-God.

Don't get me wrong, I believe he's after the Tekne or maybe will use the No-God to accomplish his goals. That isn't the same as him joining the Consult or using the No-God to reduce the population and shut the Outside. Indeed, he wants to get to Golgoterreth for reasons other than destroying the Consult, I agree.

[Madness]

Just want to reaffirm that there are a lot of ends to tie at Momemn. Kellhus almost certainly diffuses the White-Luck Warrior by having Whelmed Kelmomas and knowing enough Ajokli lore to guess the God would find his son a desirable patsy (Gil-jokli/Ajokgoal thoughts aside). He has the Last Cishaurim now, for whatever nefarious purpose. Ciphrang-Malowebi is unleashed. And Kellhus claims to Psatma and Malowebi that he has anticipated at least one of Yatwer's moves - though Sorweel suggests that She is planning past Momemn.

Also, Kellhus has hardly "saved" the New Empire, if the capitol is a complete ruin.

Kellhus' modus operandi since leaving Ishual has been absorbing and synthesizing the useful aspects of everything he encounters, whether it was individual people, the religious culture of the three seas, the sorcerous schools, the first Holy War, etc. I would be amazed if Kellhus didn't do the same with the Consult and the tekne - absorb, disintegrate, reintegrate - but I wouldn't say that's the same as him 'joining' the Consult or becoming the No-God.

+1.

[gtownwr]

He discusses that with Akka in TTT:

Following a fleet survey of the Theses, Achamian moved on to the Persemiota, the meaning-fixing meditative techniques that Mandate Schoolmen, thanks to the Seswathan homunculus within them, largely ignored. Then he delved into the technical depths of the Semansis Dualis, the very doorstep of what had been, until the coming of the man who sat before him, a final precursor to damnation.

He explained the all-important relation between the two halves of every Cant: the inutterals, which always remained unspoken, and the utterals, which always were spoken. Since any single meaning could be skewed by the vagaries of circumstance, Cants required a second, simultaneous meaning, which, though as vulnerable to distortion as the first, braced it nonetheless, even as it too was braced. As Outhrata, the great Kûniüric metaphysician, had put it, language required two wings to fly.

“So the inutterals serve to fix the utterals,” Kellhus said, “the way the words of one man might secure the words of another.”

“Precisely,” Achamian replied. “One must think and say two different things at once. This is the greatest challenge—even more so than the mnemonics. The thing that requires the most practice to master.”

Kellhus nodded, utterly unconcerned. “And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able to steal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless.”

“There’s the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key.”

Kellhus nodded. “Has anyone experimented with further inutteral strings?”

Achamian swallowed. “What do you mean?”

By some coincidence two of the hanging lanterns guttered at the same time, drawing Achamian’s eyes upward. They instantly resumed their soundless illumination.

“Has anyone devised Cants consisting of two inutteral strings?”

The “Third Phrase” was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su’juroit, the great Cûnuroi Witch-King. But for some reason, Achamian found himself loath to relate the tale. “No,” he lied. “It’s impossible.”

This is interesting, because it could be a definitive proof that the MetaGnosis is greater than Quya magic.  If the idea of a second inutteral is myth even among Non-Men, then that would imply that the presence of a second inutteral is extremely powerful, even to the Quya.  The MetaGnosis may be even more powerful than we thought, which is saying something.  I always thought it was just a little bit more powerful than Quya magic, but it may be much, much greater.

[themerchant]

The two hanging lanterns guttering at the same time always jumped out to me in that passage.

[Francis Buck]

The two hanging lanterns guttering at the same time always jumped out to me in that passage.

Same. My instinct is to relate it with Seswatha given the context. I think the Meta-Gnosis isn't something one can "learn" so much as it is "given" (or enabled) by Seswatha. The homunculus of Seswatha is able to assist or augment a sorceror's abilities by lending its (as in Seswatha -- I think "it" may be a more appropriate way of describing whatever "Seswatha" is at this point) another innuteral, which is otherwise impossible.

I also can't help but think of the two glowing eyes in darkness that Esmenet remembers seeing with her mother as a child.

[Francis Buck]

I do think the Ordeal is a throw away, but not entirely.  The Ordeal matters, but only the Few among them.  The rest are only there to deliver them.  We are literally told this in WLW.  And as MSJ points out, the Ordeal's journey becomes Holy.  In other words, they are on a holy quest.  The end is something holy.  My guess is that Kellhus installs himself as the True Solitary God, or some such.  Probably through the same means as the No-God is made.  This is why he needs to get to Golottereth.  This may be why he didn't outright kill Meppa?  Water will later become, literally Holy?

Right. So we know that whatever comes about it's going to be Holy. So, to me, we can stop the nonsense about Kellhus wanting to join the Consult and be the No-God. That doesn't fit with whatever make this holy.

I am a firm believer in the "Akka will kneel" bit. I don't think Kellhus survives the GO, at least as far as going on living. He may indeed become The God or something like that.

Out of curiosity, how are you defining "holy" in this case? What entails holiness? What is it a measurement of?

[MSJ]

Out of curiosity, how are you defining "holy" in this case? What entails holiness? What is it a measurement of?

Just that whatever happens after the GO, the GO itself becomes holy. And, one would assume if the GO becomes Holy, then Kellhus would be also. As to your question, just that post-GO whatever or whoever is left on Earwa, believes it is holy. We get several mentions of places, people and names that go on to be considered holy in the aftermath of the GO. Are they truly holy in the metaphysical sense of Earwa? Well, that all depends upon what Kellhus actually accomplishes, and as H said above, that might be a role of Mimara. I could see that playing out.

[MSJ]

FB, to  your question - "What is the measurement of?, I think, as H said, it will be measured by Mimara through the Judging Eye. I have a feeling that no matter the atrocities committed by Kellhus and his utter ruthlessness to act out his plan (TTT), it will ultimately be seen as holy through the JE. Why? We'll, we've seen two character with haloes, Mimara and Kellhus. We know Kellhus's helped are not Sorcerors in nature and might be a product of what he becomes, forgives and made Holy through Mimara a la the Judging Eye.

These are just my thoughts, though I think there is textual evidence for that to be the case. We've been thinking that Kellhus is damned, Well because, He's a sorcerer, a mass murderer and so on. But, no one knows his true intentions and I think the Haloes are a clue that at some point he will truly be holy. My guess? The destruction of the 100 and giving control back to the God.

[BeardFisher-King]

I think you're on the right track, MSJ.

[mrganondorf]

I do think the Ordeal is a throw away, but not entirely.  The Ordeal matters, but only the Few among them.  The rest are only there to deliver them.  We are literally told this in WLW.  And as MSJ points out, the Ordeal's journey becomes Holy.  In other words, they are on a holy quest.  The end is something holy.  My guess is that Kellhus installs himself as the True Solitary God, or some such.  Probably through the same means as the No-God is made.  This is why he needs to get to Golottereth.  This may be why he didn't outright kill Meppa?  Water will later become, literally Holy?

Right. So we know that whatever comes about it's going to be Holy. So, to me, we can stop the nonsense about Kellhus wanting to join the Consult and be the No-God. That doesn't fit with whatever make this holy.

I am a firm believer in the "Akka will kneel" bit. I don't think Kellhus survives the GO, at least as far as going on living. He may indeed become The God or something like that.