[themerchant]

Magic would be what i would wager on.

[Cuttlefish]

I think it was pretty evident that Serwa's "song" at the end was supposed to be magic - she was gonna tear the place asunder.

So did I, but have you read the ARC thread link posted at the top of this thread? I'd say it's 50/50 on wether her singing will be mundane or sorcery.

Hmm, yeah, it seems debatable; but within the context, it really did feel like she was going to start casting magic. I suppose we'll see.

[Madness]

Classic Bakker - we'll probably only get the aftermath of that battle . Making my imagination do the heavy lifting, will you *shakes fist* .

[mrganondorf]

The singers came from the west--were they from Ishterebinth?

I didn't get the vibe that Serwa's song would be mundane--that would be such a let down.

I'm thinking we see her in TUC still wearing that collar as a sign of how fucking badass she is.

Got to say, not really impressed by nonman 'honor.'  Torturing the 3 kids just to find out whether the Niom has been honored seems a bit much.  I know that nonmen have a low opinion of humanity, but I would think that in the matter of allies in war, you would avoid subjecting the children of an emperor to torture.  When Sorweel asked Lastborn if the word of Ishterebinth was any good, Lastborn was all like "oh yeah, besides the dolour, you wouldn't have to worry about being killed by someone trying to remember, but the initial torture thing is just our way of saying hello."

[Madness]

The singers came from the west--were they from Ishterebinth?

I'm thinking so too.

I didn't get the vibe that Serwa's song would be mundane--that would be such a let down.

I'm thinking we see her in TUC still wearing that collar as a sign of how fucking badass she is.

+1 .

[H]

I didn't get the vibe that Serwa's song would be mundane--that would be such a let down.

I'm thinking we see her in TUC still wearing that collar as a sign of how fucking badass she is.

+1 .

It certainly seems that it's the gag, not the collar that is the wrench in her (Kellhus') plan though, right?  Or was that just how it seemed to me?  So when the gag is gone, she can "sing" her sorcery again.  Consider:

She did not sing simply because the watch she had sung for had come and gone.
Her next song would command fire and ruin.

Then he gags her.  Next time we see her:

And it descended as lightning, the realization the she had failed.
Harapior had guessed her gambit.

I think she had sung, so that they would not gag her, especially in the throne room.  They would want to hear her songs.  The collar isn't important at all, I am sure there is a meta-Gnostic, or as I speculated elsewhere a Dunyain, way to defeat the effect of a collar.  They collar her early on and yet, she only thinks about having failed when she is stopped from speaking.

Recall the collar only inflicts pain, it does not actually stop one from preforming sorcery right out.  She is defeated by the gag.  Once it's gone, the plan is back on, fire and ruin.

[mrganondorf]

Oh yeah, H, I got the same thing--the gag was the unexpected wrinkle in the Dunyain scheme.  Such a small thing.  Wonder if it foreshadows some tiny thing getting in Kellhus' way right at the end.

[MSJ]

Great catch, H! That all makes sense, and I was never on the mundane singing. I still wonder if the chorae Sorweel has may negate the collar in some way. Once the gag was put on she does think she has failed, never caught that before. Fire and Ruin, indeed.

[Madness]

I didn't get the vibe that Serwa's song would be mundane--that would be such a let down.

I'm thinking we see her in TUC still wearing that collar as a sign of how fucking badass she is.

+1 .

It certainly seems that it's the gag, not the collar that is the wrench in her (Kellhus') plan though, right?  Or was that just how it seemed to me?  So when the gag is gone, she can "sing" her sorcery again.  Consider:

She did not sing simply because the watch she had sung for had come and gone.
Her next song would command fire and ruin.

Then he gags her.  Next time we see her:

And it descended as lightning, the realization the she had failed.
Harapior had guessed her gambit.

I been on this boat since day one. Metagnosis trumps Gnostic artifact. And she probably isn't just going to phone a Wathi doll as Achamian does above the Agonic Circle.

[Dont Skald Me Bro]

What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?

[MSJ]

What was the deal with the little Nonmen statue things that were running around the Boatman's legs on and all that on the descent?

Great question. I was wondering what the significance of those myself. Could it have anything to do with the lifelike faces the past on the way down? IIRC, it happened around the same time.

[Madness]

There is a passage in that section where Oinaral explains some kind of theory behind why the Nonmen made them.

[Cynical Cat]

I have to put myself in the mundane singing camp.

1) Metagnostic cants are Gnostic cants with two nonutterals.  They are more difficult and demanding to use that conventional cants, but allow new capabilities by having two nonutterals fix the uttered cant.  The collar works by interrupting an attempted cant with crippling pain (and possibly death in this case).  This means attempting a Gnostic cant is suicide and since the Metagnosis is even more demanding to use than the Gnosis, it is even less likely to succeed.

2) Serwa had previously intended to unleash wrack and ruin, but her intended targets are now dead.  Circumstances have changed and the actions needed to master the new circumstances have changed as well.

3) A major theme of the series is that the power of sorcery may be great but the power to command men is greater.  The liege of all sorcerers is more powerful than a sorcerer.  She has been honing her skills to take the minds and loyalties of the Nonmen and she bears a great portion of her father's gifts.  As her Dunyain father did when hanging from the circumflex, she will seize.

[MSJ]

@Cynical Cat, those are all great points I haven't taking into account. Truly, with Nin'ciljaras dead and Orinaus also there what is the sense in killing potential allies? Great post.

[Cynical Cat]

@Cynical Cat, those are all great points I haven't taking into account. Truly, with Nin'ciljaras dead and Orinaus also there what is the sense in killing potential allies? Great post.

Thank you.