[Madness]

2) Serwa had previously intended to unleash wrack and ruin, but her intended targets are now dead.  Circumstances have changed and the actions needed to master the new circumstances have changed as well.

I'll quibble just because we don't know the numbers on either side. Someone threw a Chorae at Serwa right at the start, rather than risk her getting free.

My guess is that we'll see the aftermath of her, Oiranus, and whoever else is still semi-lucid bringing the Consult Loyalists to heel.

@Cynical Cat, those are all great points I haven't taking into account. Truly, with Nin'ciljaras dead and Orinaus also there what is the sense in killing potential allies? Great post.

Thank you.

CC is legacy, MSJ .

[Cynical Cat]

Yeah, not all the supporters of the Vile are dead but clearly circumstances have changed.  The giant with four Chorae in his armour who just killed the king is exhibit A in "things are not like they were an hour ago".  She might fry a couple of dudes, but she's here to crush the Consult and recruit allies.  The crushing Consult supporters bit is well in hand, now is the time to work the ghouls.  Or, more precisely, to continue working the ghouls she has been preparing with her singing.

[Somnambulist]

At this point, everyone's hand has been forced.  No more fucking around.  The vile and their supporters are known in Ishterebinth.  Those who oppose them are known.  The Tall just killed their king.  I don't see any sudden changes of allegiance, and even if there were, you wouldn't want ex-Consult fanboys suddenly "on your side."  The Tall won't stop with just the king, he'll try to take all the Consult sympathizers out.  Consult-allied will throw down or won't want to stick around to be chopped up next.  Serwa will definitely sing fire and ruin against them.  I just can't see why there would be more mundane singing at this point.  It's time to clean house.

IMO

[themerchant]

Yeah only two folk have died, the hall is still full of non-men fingering their hilts.

[MSJ]

It is great points made by CC, though I've always been firmly in the "fire and ruin" camp. I think Som makes a great point also, that most are already aligned with the Vile and you wouldn't want them on your side. But, how many are for the Consult simply because of Nin'Ciljaras being the Nonman King? What I am saying is, are a bunch of them going to be like, "Yay the Consult stooge is dead, glad I don't have to play along anymore.". Or, are they all Erratic and were truly all-in with the Consult's plan? I think Orinaral says that there is only a dozen or so that's Intact, so I think the odds of flipping the Erratics sides is probably a waste of time. Doesnt Serwe even comment that Ish is held by the Consult?

[Somnambulist]

Well, all the nonmen were playing along.  They took shots when they could (i.e., goading Nin'ciljiras), but those who hadn't fallen to the Consult were fewer than those who had.  I think the Anasurimbor knew that Ishterebinth had gone over to the Consult, or at least considered it a real possibility.  Hence contingencies.  Also, just remembered one of Madness' favorite quotes from the Tall - "This is our cannibal fate!"  Meaning (to me anyway), they would consume/destroy each other. Probably not a new thought amongst themselves, but appropriate for what was about to go down, I think.

[H]

Upon thinking about my break down, I actually have come around that since Serwa feels so defeated by the gag and not at all by the Collar, it is as likely that she is simply singing songs.  In fact, the fact that she laments Harpinor having ruined her plan, perhaps mundane singing is actually more probable.

[Madness]

Lol - as I do basically every page, I'll just reiterate that I'm with, as MSJ aptly put it, "fire and ruin" .

Also, just remembered one of Madness' favorite quotes from the Tall - "This is our cannibal fate!"  Meaning (to me anyway), they would consume/destroy each other. Probably not a new thought amongst themselves, but appropriate for what was about to go down, I think.

Yeah, there's just so much packed into that sentence and Oirunas is like laughing and crying. And, you know, the Nonmen tolerate the fucking Gloom so that no Nonman is Damned unnecessarily. But the grudge against the Vile is so great !

You almost get the feeling that since Oirunas doesn't know yet about Serwa, the Metagnosis, Sorweel and his god-entanglement, Kellhus, or the Great Ordeal, that he might think that those are the final, violent moments of their whole race.

So good.

[The Sharmat]

I suspect they are the final violent moments of their whole race. I suspect full carnage. There's so few remotely lucid ones left the rest will be left to die. I really think we've just seen the final end of the Cunuroi race.

[H]

Lol - as I do basically every page, I'll just reiterate that I'm with, as MSJ aptly put it, "fire and ruin" .

Well, she does say "command fire and ruin."  There is a plausible way to read that as her literally invoking them do her bidding through song.

[Cynical Cat]

It is great points made by CC, though I've always been firmly in the "fire and ruin" camp. I think Som makes a great point also, that most are already aligned with the Vile and you wouldn't want them on your side. But, how many are for the Consult simply because of Nin'Ciljaras being the Nonman King? What I am saying is, are a bunch of them going to be like, "Yay the Consult stooge is dead, glad I don't have to play along anymore.". Or, are they all Erratic and were truly all-in with the Consult's plan? I think Orinaral says that there is only a dozen or so that's Intact, so I think the odds of flipping the Erratics sides is probably a waste of time. Doesnt Serwe even comment that Ish is held by the Consult?

1) She's still wearing the collar, one that is crafted not to merely inflict pain but that also kills.  Sorcery isn't on the table as long as it is on.

2) All the Nonmen are damaged.  They are so damaged in fact that the son of their most hated traitor who was openly wearing the gifts of the Consult was allowed to become their king.  So she's going to have to deal with Nonmen who accepted the rule of a Consult ally as well as Erratics and the violent passions of the Tall. 

She's going to have to wrangle the whole damaged group, a task which requires some kind of superhumanely perceptive and persuasive genius.  Oh wait, that's exactly who Kellhus sent.  With an added bonus, she has the best "make the enemy come over to my side with music" chops this side of Macross. 

I do agree that this is going to be the death of the race and at her hand, but not by her sorcery.  She will lead them against their hated enemy so that they can reclaim a sliver of themselves and extract vengeance against those who murdered their race.

[MSJ]

I do agree that this is going to be the death of the race and at her hand, but not by her sorcery.  She will lead them against their hated enemy so that they can reclaim a sliver of themselves and extract vengeance against those who murdered their race.

However it comes about, I truly hope this is what we see. Mundane or Sorcery doesn't really matter to me, as long as she can rally them against the Consult, I'm in.

[Madness]

...

I don't disagree with your conclusion, just differ on the in-narrative events between now and then.

Aside, I previously mentioned in that first iteration of this thread, I believe, that I think a portion of Ishterebinth's ARC in TUC will involve Serwa, Sorweel, and the Nonmen deciding whether or not to ride to the Ordeal's aid at all - though, the Tall seem like they'll oppose Min-Uroikas, no matter their state.

They're all going to be damn horrified when they meet up with the Ordeal, though.

[sohorat]

I was struck by the exact wording that Harapior used:

"Emilidis himself wrought this," he said. "No one who has tested it has survived...You would die were you to shed the least light of Meaning...Certainly! To suppose otherwise would be to blaspheme the Artisan."

It's the "Certainly" that upsets me, since it seems like one of Bakker's "tells." 

And yet we're given no reasons to doubt the Artisan's craft. 

I had thought that using a Metagnostic variant of a Gnostic Cant by substituting an additional inutteral string for the spoken string might defeat the Agonic Collar, but Harapior didn't say "least light of Meaning pass your lips," or "utter the least light of Meaning," etc.

I'm guessing that Canting at all will "shed" Meaning, so the Collar doesn't require the full Lo Pan to activate. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--2Eh4Jdo04

When Harapior is taunting her ("Sing for us, witch!") the text says that "She did not sing simply because the watch she had sung for had come and gone." 

Why the emphasis, there, if not to set up and explain some future collusion? 

I'd prefer it if the "fire and ruin" she "commands" actually comes from the Quya, at least at first.  Harapior is among the Quya, and it seems likely her other listeners were drawn from them. 

Maybe Vippol the Elder?  I'd like to see what it takes to be "the most gifted of the surviving Quya."   

[Cynical Cat]

They're all going to be damn horrified when they meet up with the Ordeal, though.

Maybe.  I'm not so sure after seeing the Gloom in Istererbinth.   They don't have to leave home to see horrific things happening to people they care more about than humans.  As an alternate possibility, the state of the Great Ordeal might be so horrific that it stirs up memories of the Second Apocalypse of the Cujo-Inchoroi Wars and thus make the Nonmen more sane.