[Wilshire]

I just read this section yesterday.  There was a chorae that someone had thrown at Serwa, it was bouncing along the grilled floor until part of it gave way and halted it.  It's described that Sorweel grabbed it and was reaching toward her face with it.  Basically, though it's not explicitly stated, I figured the proximity of the chorae to the collar nullified the magic so she could sing (in addition to him pulling the cloth from her mouth of course).

Aporetic sorcery canceling out something meant to prevent sorcery . Interesting.

Also interesting that a chorae was even in the room at all. The practice was banned, I would have expected Ishterebinth to be bereft of such objects.

[H]

Well, if the Ishroi didn't have any Chorae, wouldn't that allow the Quya to be undisputed masters of them?  How else would they keep them in check?

[Somnambulist]

And the Tall had four chorae embedded/attached to hi armor, so it seems they, at some point, overcame their resistance to utilizing chorae.  Maybe after the Inchies grafted the ability to perform sorcery, or Erratic Quya started going over to the Consult.

[Hirtius/Pansa]

I am firmly in the camp that Serwa's singing at the end is purely mundane.  Much is made of the spiritual, religious value of song to the Nonmen in one of the chapters.  She'll perform some Tragic ballad which will Dunyain-whelm all the Cunoroi.

[Wilshire]

Well, if the Ishroi didn't have any Chorae, wouldn't that allow the Quya to be undisputed masters of them?  How else would they keep them in check?

Tradition I guess? They seem a people obsessed with traditions. The Sons of Tsonor rule the mansions, period. Maybe its unlawful for Quya to fight against non-Quya.

And the Tall had four chorae embedded/attached to hi armor, so it seems they, at some point, overcame their resistance to utilizing chorae.  Maybe after the Inchies grafted the ability to perform sorcery, or Erratic Quya started going over to the Consult.

Good point. Even protection from themselves as they see their brothers go beserk looking for tragedy. Would be important to keep some around.

I am firmly in the camp that Serwa's singing at the end is purely mundane.  Much is made of the spiritual, religious value of song to the Nonmen in one of the chapters.  She'll perform some Tragic ballad which will Dunyain-whelm all the Cunoroi.

I never really considered this. Clearly her singing before was mundane, and it severely affected Sir Torturer.
That he gagged her to prevent mundane singing seems very obvious.  That she is then following through with her plan to whelm the nonmen with her singing once Sorweel removes the gag seems very plausible. I very much like this.

[Hirtius/Pansa]

Totally Wilshire.  Especially with the Nonmen genes in the Anasurimbor bloodline.  Kellhus is described as having a "deep and cavernous voice ringing with inhuman resonance" at the very last page of TTT.  The exact same phrase is used by Achamian to describe Cleric waxing philosophical in Cil-Aujas.  Those Nonmen genes will allow Serwa to hit those high notes—imagine the trauma of recollection of all their wives singing?

[Somnambulist]

Re: mundane singing.  Except that previous to all this, when the Nonmen were taking her to meet the King, she reflected that the time for singing (songs implied) was over.

Edit: 'And made demonstration of her father's dread portion.'  Though Kellhus likes a good hymn, I doubt that's what she was about to do.

[Blackstone]

Re: mundane singing.  Except that previous to all this, when the Nonmen were taking her to meet the King, she reflected that the time for singing (songs implied) was over.

Edit: 'And made demonstration of her father's dread portion.'  Though Kellhus likes a good hymn, I doubt that's what she was about to do.

Agreed. I think she begins singing songs of a "different" variety. Still not sure about the agonic collar though.

[Hirtius/Pansa]

No.  lol  No.  I don't think I'll ever be as adamant about anything else on this forum!  "Show them my portion" has plenty of semantic ambiguities, besides "kill them all if things go south."  To me, that means: "Make a demonstration of my abilities", which doesn't preclude singing a good hymn to ensnare the Nonmen.

And my read of "the time for singing was over" wasn't a rolling up the sleeves getting ready for a fight but more of a resigned to their doom, I guess. They don't know that Sorweel is coming back to save them.  They are pretty much dead at that point without any chance of escape or hope.

[Somnambulist]

  Just my opinion, BUT if she could have whelmed them with mundane singing, why didn't she do it before?  Before she was tortured?  Before Moenghus was tortured and maimed?  Before she was gagged?  Before her head was strapped to the grill?  Before she broke down and resigned herself to the fact that she'd failed?  Just seems like, if that was how it was going to play out (more mundane singing), it seems kind of circuitous and pointless.  She wouldn't have waited to whelm them if she could have done that from the start, and saved weeks of torture/time/opportunity.  Not saying I'm absolutely correct, but it just doesn't make sense to me.  Meh.

[Wilshire]

Just my opinion, BUT if she could have whelmed them with mundane singing, why didn't she do it before?  Before she was tortured?  Before Moenghus was tortured and maimed?  Before she was gagged?  Before her head was strapped to the grill?  Before she broke down and resigned herself to the fact that she'd failed?  Just seems like, if that was how it was going to play out (more mundane singing), it seems kind of circuitous and pointless.  She wouldn't have waited to whelm them if she could have done that from the start, and saved weeks of torture/time/opportunity.  Not saying I'm absolutely correct, but it just doesn't make sense to me.  Meh.

Wouldn't want to blow your trump card on a pawn when you can go straight for the king.
Moenghus is nobody, he provides no real value to the Anasurimbor line - he's not even Dunyain. Her gambit was that her singing convinced Torturer to let her see the King, and that once there she could do SOMETHING to convince/force them to free them.

I'm not convinced on the whelming thing, but she definitely thought she was going to be able to get freed right up until she was gagged. That's when everything fell apart and she realized she had lost.

There is just no way she could Cant with the collar on. The Architect made that.

[Somnambulist]

Just my opinion, BUT if she could have whelmed them with mundane singing, why didn't she do it before?  Before she was tortured?  Before Moenghus was tortured and maimed?  Before she was gagged?  Before her head was strapped to the grill?  Before she broke down and resigned herself to the fact that she'd failed?  Just seems like, if that was how it was going to play out (more mundane singing), it seems kind of circuitous and pointless.  She wouldn't have waited to whelm them if she could have done that from the start, and saved weeks of torture/time/opportunity.  Not saying I'm absolutely correct, but it just doesn't make sense to me.  Meh.

Wouldn't want to blow your trump card on a pawn when you can go straight for the king.
Moenghus is nobody, he provides no real value to the Anasurimbor line - he's not even Dunyain. Her gambit was that her singing convinced Torturer to let her see the King, and that once there she could do SOMETHING to convince/force them to free them.

I'm not convinced on the whelming thing, but she definitely thought she was going to be able to get freed right up until she was gagged. That's when everything fell apart and she realized she had lost.

There is just no way she could Cant with the collar on. The Architect made that.

I don't buy it.  It took Kellhus (a full-blooded Dunyain) months to build his following in the Holy War, and he had to start small.  The people in power were the ones who had the most to lose, the hardest to convince to give up their power to him.  Why would Nonman society be the exact opposite of that?  Serwa (only half-Dunyain), is supposed to be able to charm the Nonman king in moments, get him to release her through a whelming of some sort?  That's precisely what she was doing all those weeks, using her Dunyain voice to sow discord among their souls, to remind them of their lost wives, assumedly to get in front of the king.  To then sing more tunes to him?  Nah.  She knew Ishterebinth had fallen to Golgotterath by that point.  No way she was suddenly going to convince them to switch sides.  She was there to end it, to destroy any possibility that the Nonmen of Ishterebinth would join in the fight against the Ordeal.

So, Sorweel (with the Chorae in hand) interrupted the agonic collar and pulled the rag from her mouth to allow her to do her thing.  With sorcery.  I suppose we shall see the aftermath in a year (sigh) when TUC comes out.

[Wilshire]

So, Sorweel (with the Chorae in hand) interrupted the agonic collar and pulled the rag from her mouth to allow her to do her thing.  With sorcery.  I suppose we shall see the aftermath in a year (sigh) when TUC comes out.

The chorae disrupting the collar is a very likely scenario.

However, what was he plan otherwise, without miracle chorae? I refuse to accept she planned to sing from with the collar attached. Did she just think they were going to let her go, stand in front of the King, and take off the collar for her? That seems an even more unlikely path. Clearly, she didn't expect to be gagged and tied to the floor, but what DID she expect?

[Somnambulist]

So, Sorweel (with the Chorae in hand) interrupted the agonic collar and pulled the rag from her mouth to allow her to do her thing.  With sorcery.  I suppose we shall see the aftermath in a year (sigh) when TUC comes out.

The chorae disrupting the collar is a very likely scenario.

However, what was he plan otherwise, without miracle chorae? I refuse to accept she planned to sing from with the collar attached. Did she just think they were going to let her go, stand in front of the King, and take off the collar for her? That seems an even more unlikely path. Clearly, she didn't expect to be gagged and tied to the floor, but what DID she expect?

This, I concede.  Without the intervention of the Tall/Sorweel/chorae, she was doomed.  I do believe she was singing (mundane) to try to convince the Nonmen underlings to bring her before the king.  But, yeah, she had to have suspected they'd put a collar on her.  Don't know how she'd planned to get around that.  Maybe she didn't.  Maybe she though the metagnosis could, in one go, cause enough damage and/or kill the king before the collar killed her.  Dunno.

[Blackstone]

There is just no way she could Cant with the collar on. The Architect made that.

So, Sorweel (with the Chorae in hand) interrupted the agonic collar and pulled the rag from her mouth to allow her to do her thing.  With sorcery.  I suppose we shall see the aftermath in a year (sigh) when TUC comes out.

The chorae disrupting the collar is a very likely scenario.

However, what was he plan otherwise, without miracle chorae? I refuse to accept she planned to sing from with the collar attached. Did she just think they were going to let her go, stand in front of the King, and take off the collar for her? That seems an even more unlikely path. Clearly, she didn't expect to be gagged and tied to the floor, but what DID she expect?

This, I concede.  Without the intervention of the Tall/Sorweel/chorae, she was doomed.  I do believe she was singing (mundane) to try to convince the Nonmen underlings to bring her before the king.  But, yeah, she had to have suspected they'd put a collar on her.  Don't know how she'd planned to get around that.  Maybe she didn't.  Maybe she though the metagnosis could, in one go, cause enough damage and/or kill the king before the collar killed her.  Dunno.

I'm with Somnambulist on this one. It strains belief that she thought she could get into the throne room and use mundane singing to show the nonmen Kell's "portion." Although, I will say, that it took her so long with the mundane singing because she was puzzling out just how to sing the song to remind the torturer or his wife (iirc he even mentions how it takes her a while).

Perhaps we are ignoring another possibility. Serwa can somehow hide within herself, I am assuming the nonmen tried compulsion and it didn't work, so maybe she has some trick to use sorcery with the collar on.