[Wilshire]

I have a lot of the same written down as you guys. Not a ton to add to the above beyond what I've been through before elsewhere.

A few more though
Genrelka is mentioned as the Emperor or nothing. Thought that was clever.

Pg 11 - mentions kellhus ability to anticipate thought and re-enact the movements of souls was something to come later.
This may imply it's an ability unique to Kellhus, to Dunyain who enter the world, it was a skill not taught to kellhus, or something else. Just seems odd.

Pg17 Leweth "nods sagely", a term clearly defined later by Akka to mean a gesture or pantomime to be seen as more knowledgeable than one is.

Pg18, I agree, first we see kellhus whelming another.

P19 kellhus sees the script and is surprised the world is "older than the Dunyain"... uh, duh? I really get the feeling through a lot of this that it's not just Kellhus who is conceited, but really just all dunyain. They have some really weird gaps in the preternatural intelligence. Like, how to survive in the wild or thinking the wold is 2000 years old.

Pg28, specifically - OUR elju. So mr.sranc here held the memories of multiple nonmen? Or is our a gimmicky way to say MY to make Me here sound old-timey?

Love this chapter. So great.

And for funs, love the first scene with Akka to. I think the juxtaposition of the whore and Akka from the very start hilarious. Also, whore, anagke, Akka is the chosen one.

[MSJ]

H.,

I'm not saying Kelhuss is infallible, only I believe he can and is and has manipulated the Outside. Dont really want to get ahead of the conversation here, but on example of manipulating the Outside could be Serwe's heart or going to the Outside and hunting Chiprang. I believe Kelhuss is fully in control, only his decisions will come into question. There is plenty of evidence to say he's wrong about things.

[Madness]

H.,

I'm not saying Kelhuss is infallible, only I believe he can and is and has manipulated the Outside. Dont really want to get ahead of the conversation here, but on example of manipulating the Outside could be Serwe's heart or going to the Outside and hunting Chiprang. I believe Kelhuss is fully in control, only his decisions will come into question. There is plenty of evidence to say he's wrong about things.

MSJ, beauty of the rereads is the way new thread topics just fall out of them. If you want to create that thread to discuss specifically or at some later time to remind yourselves, do so .

[H]

P19 kellhus sees the script and is surprised the world is "older than the Dunyain"... uh, duh? I really get the feeling through a lot of this that it's not just Kellhus who is conceited, but really just all dunyain. They have some really weird gaps in the preternatural intelligence. Like, how to survive in the wild or thinking the wold is 2000 years old.

Well, I think this is  to illustrate how sheltered the Dunyain were.  They never even considered teaching and something that Kellhus probably never really thought about, even though it's very obvious.

Pg28, specifically - OUR elju. So mr.sranc here held the memories of multiple nonmen? Or is our a gimmicky way to say MY to make Me here sound old-timey?

I wonder if he uses the plural to refer to a fractured personality, perhaps?

H.,

I'm not saying Kelhuss is infallible, only I believe he can and is and has manipulated the Outside. Dont really want to get ahead of the conversation here, but on example of manipulating the Outside could be Serwe's heart or going to the Outside and hunting Chiprang. I believe Kelhuss is fully in control, only his decisions will come into question. There is plenty of evidence to say he's wrong about things.

I follow you there, what I'm saying is, there is no doubt he is manipulatating the Outside, the Cipphrang heads are literal proof of this.  My point is that I doubt his reach is as far or as strong as it is in Earwa.  In other words, I think he feels he is manipulating the Outside as he has Earwa, but I don't know that he really is.

I think this is why Moe is shocked by their encounter (even though he tries to hide it).  The idea that Kellhus can manipulate Earwa and the Outside against some sort of middle is audacious to say the least.  We'll have to see if he can pull it off.  I have my doubts.

[Camlost]

P19 kellhus sees the script and is surprised the world is "older than the Dunyain"... uh, duh? I really get the feeling through a lot of this that it's not just Kellhus who is conceited, but really just all dunyain. They have some really weird gaps in the preternatural intelligence. Like, how to survive in the wild or thinking the wold is 2000 years old.

Two things I also noted in relation to this:
1)

Still emaciated but wearing the furs of kings, the Dunyain chiselled the sorcerous runes from the walls and burned the Gran Vizier's books

2)The first set of ruins Kellhus encounters:

But there was something in them, something not now, that bent Kellhus toward unfamiliar passions. When he brushed his hands across the stone, he knew he touched the breath and toil of Men--the mark of a destroyed people... Men... here in the stone. Old and untouched by the rigour of the Dunyain. Somehow they had resisted the sleep, had raised the work of hands against the wildnerness.
Who built this place?

We know Ishual remained hidden because of the glamour placed about it, but one of the firs things the Dunyain do when the get there is obliterate any suggestion of sorcery. How does it stay hidden for two millenia after that? I get that the North is vast and sparsely populated, but two thousand years is a very long time to not stumble across the last stronghold of the High Kings of the North..

Also, did the Dunyain simply forsake the rest of the world in pursuit of the Logos? I mean how could Kellhus not know that a history precedes the Dunyain? That which comes before determines what comes after right? It seems odd they'd drop an entire civilization from their history lessons.. And why is he surprised that it was fashioned by Men? If he is unaware of the Nonmen until his encounter with Mek and the Dunyain's experience with Sranc is likely encounters with roving tribal bands then who else could possibly have fashioned the ruins?

What is the "sleep"? Is this simply an article of Dunyain doctrine or are they spreading a false claim that all outside the walls "sleeps" or is unenlightened in the way they are?

[Wilshire]

Rest of chapter one, not much.

Pg41 Akka says he rarely questioned his ability ovet the years.
Pg42 Akka says he killed a Chish 1v1.
The's psssges are notable to me because I always feel like he plays the downtrodden fool the whole time. He actually does has some belief  in himself and we have proof of how powerful he is from the start, it seems.

Pg 46 from the skin spy, calls itself  "impossibly ancient"
Pg52 Akka says mandate lost contact with the consult 300 years ago
300 doesn't really seem impossibly ancient.

Pg44 mentions "incandescent unraveling of flesh and bone" when a sorcerer touches a chorae. Seems thus word is used from the start to describe all manner of chorae touched schoolmen, cosh or otherwise, right from the start.



Pg50 prophesy. See other topics lol. Potentially noteworthy - timing. Kellhus began his journey 3 to 6 months prior, not sure on timing for when he arrives in atrithau though. Changes correlate with info about cish, like moenghus' doing.

Speaking of, still a bit of wtf with the whole assassination. Akka just said his wards protected him from a Cish, seems odd that no warning was set off in the SS compound.

[Wilshire]

Camlost:
Pretty sure thewhole glamor around Ishual is a theory that was never really supported intext, and later misquoted as confirmed but with proof never really showing up. If you could provide a quote...

The history thing bothers me a lot. How can they not be controlled by history if they purposefully ignore it. It's completely anathema to the entire Dunyain dogma.

His surprise of the ruins make sense if he thought Ishual the oldest human outpost... still odd though.



Aside, that which proceeds was alien... Nonmen quite literally proceeded men, even if not directly the men of Eanna since they came in and occupied their land, and therefore their histories (also, Tutelage).
H
Forgot about split personality. A likely explination.

[Camlost]

I guess I made the mistake of thinking you guys were right lol. I'll keep an eye out for textual evidence as we read. I have a hard time believing a structure of that size stayed hidden that long..

Aside, that which proceeds was alien... Nonmen quite literally proceeded men, even if not directly the men of Eanna since they came in and occupied their land, and therefore their histories (also, Tutelage).

Another instance of why obliterate a history? Unless they are covering up the Tutelage in that sorcery is a largely chaotic element to quantify in terms of probability

[H]

We know Ishual remained hidden because of the glamour placed about it, but one of the firs things the Dunyain do when the get there is obliterate any suggestion of sorcery. How does it stay hidden for two millenia after that? I get that the North is vast and sparsely populated, but two thousand years is a very long time to not stumble across the last stronghold of the High Kings of the North..

Also, did the Dunyain simply forsake the rest of the world in pursuit of the Logos? I mean how could Kellhus not know that a history precedes the Dunyain? That which comes before determines what comes after right? It seems odd they'd drop an entire civilization from their history lessons.. And why is he surprised that it was fashioned by Men? If he is unaware of the Nonmen until his encounter with Mek and the Dunyain's experience with Sranc is likely encounters with roving tribal bands then who else could possibly have fashioned the ruins?

What is the "sleep"? Is this simply an article of Dunyain doctrine or are they spreading a false claim that all outside the walls "sleeps" or is unenlightened in the way they are?

Well, I think part of what kept Ishual safe was it's proximity to (probably) other Nonmen ruins and the fact that, well, no one would really care to hunt it down (because they didn't even know it was there).  As we are lead to believe, Sranc did occasionally wander there, only to be obliterated by Dunyain.  I'd bet the Dunyain were pretty active in patrolling the surrounding forest to make sure no one came too close.  That's probably what got Moe into trouble in the first place, because it wasn't just Sranc that came that time, Mek was there too.

Kellhus' lack of knowledge of history does rub me the same way, as being a bit silly, however, your quote about being "awake" leads me to think that he was tought that the world slept while the Dunyain were awake.  In other words, he probably thought that the men outside Ishual were little more than beasts, both unenlightened and primal, simply because if the Dunyain are "advanced" then non-Dunyain cannot be.  No doubt this is part of the Dunyain superiority complex, all part of what will make them "superior human beings."

It's like what early Modern explorers must have felt stumbling upon the ruins of Machi Picchu or the like.  The narrative had been that these were "primatives" so such architecture was surprising.  I think that's a big part of what strikes Kellhus.

Speaking of, still a bit of wtf with the whole assassination. Akka just said his wards protected him from a Cish, seems odd that no warning was set off in the SS compound.

Am I dreaming this up, or did we know that it was actually the Consult who pulled off the assassination, under the auspices that it was the Cish, to drive them to join the Holy War?

[Wilshire]

Good thing we are on a reread then

[H]

Good thing we are on a reread then

I found it and I was wrong, at least, as far as we know it really was the Cish that did it.  How they did it though, I have no idea, some kind of meta-Psukhe or something I'd guess, probably something Moe dreamed up.

[Wilshire]

Yeah their little dimensional door thing... weird.
And it was part of Moe's TTT. He needed to unite all nations, and most of then at least. The SS and Ainon would not have joined in without the assassination a decade prior.


Notes on chapter 2.

Meh, not a lot here for me to discuss. I was struck by how similar the trauma of the memory of the apocalypse, the suffering, and how Akka talks about living in a world with no present or future (only past),  so fully sounds like the world Erratic must live.

[H]

The only thing that struck me is the character of Simas.  Since we know he will later be reavealed as a sin-spy, the question is, when was he replaced?

The options would seem to be either before this chapter, or after.  Considering though, how it seems to know things from the distant past, i.e. it mentions that it told Nautzera when Inrau went missing that it was not an accident but a defection, however one that might prove useful in the future, it would seem the the skin-spy predates that?  Or else, how would it know of that?

[Wilshire]

Yeah I have never placed in my mind the timeline if that replacement. Will have to pay close attention later to see if it becomes obvious for some reason.

[MSJ]

I read Chapter 2 last night and thought I found a clue that Simas is indeed a Skin-Spy at this time.

There’s strength in scepticism,” Simas continued. “Those who believe thoughtlessly in dangerous times are the first to die. But these are dangerous times, Achamian. More so than in many, many years. Perhaps dangerous enough to be sceptical even of our scepticism, hmm?” Achamian turned to him, caught by something in his tone. Simas’s gaze faltered. A small struggle darkened his face.

Meh, could be nothing. But, the small struggle is what made me think it was a clue that he was. Like the skin-spy thought Akka could tell something was amiss.

ETA: Ooh, and another thing, Nautzera talking about skeptics, as in those that think the Consult is no longer. Chasing ghosts. Wouldn't that be the main goal of Simas inside the the Mandate?