[Wilshire]

I don't want anything, nor am i suggesting Moe can mass-produce skin-spies, create power sources and manipulate genes.I am suggesting that Moe "broke" the conditioning of one and en-souled it and then sent it to the Mandate. Then to gain instant Mandate trust and deliver them to Shimeh Maitha unveils it. All information regarding the skin-spy comes directly from Uncle Holy, who is working under direction of his father (paving the way) at the time.

I'm not claiming a mystery.

Akka's skepticism about Kellhus' claim(when they first meet) that he made a wager with Cnaiur is completely washed away when he hears his name and that he dreamed of Shimeh from afar. In the same way Maithanet turning up at Mandate headquarters unannounced is not questioned because he uncovered a mistakenly en-souled skin-spy.

This is all assuming Moe actually did plan for Kellhus going mad etc. I just feel if that's on the table then so is this.

Ah. That makes way more sense. Converting one to his side or wiping memories, while likely extremely difficult, is not implausible.

[themerchant]

We need to extricate ourselves from the reductionist logic which blinds logical positions in adherence to normal human motivations.

I mean do we really expect the neuro-puncture the Dunyain employed against their effectives would have the same cause/effect deterministic results?

That's not where the assumption lies though. It lies in the ability of Moe to adapt it to work with skin spies in conjunction with his own magical abilities.  They have brains that elicit responses when someone "brushes" their pins, we've seen this.

this all lies in the shadow of Moe still influencing the world. When he might just be mistaken and dead. The entire Mandate gets a soul "superimposed" over their own, which incidentally a Dunyain works out how to talk to and interact with.

[themerchant]

I don't want anything, nor am i suggesting Moe can mass-produce skin-spies, create power sources and manipulate genes.I am suggesting that Moe "broke" the conditioning of one and en-souled it and then sent it to the Mandate. Then to gain instant Mandate trust and deliver them to Shimeh Maitha unveils it. All information regarding the skin-spy comes directly from Uncle Holy, who is working under direction of his father (paving the way) at the time.

I'm not claiming a mystery.

Akka's skepticism about Kellhus' claim(when they first meet) that he made a wager with Cnaiur is completely washed away when he hears his name and that he dreamed of Shimeh from afar. In the same way Maithanet turning up at Mandate headquarters unannounced is not questioned because he uncovered a mistakenly en-souled skin-spy.

This is all assuming Moe actually did plan for Kellhus going mad etc. I just feel if that's on the table then so is this.

Ah. That makes way more sense. Converting one to his side or wiping memories, while likely extremely difficult, is not implausible.

Yeah he's had years, although i've just realised who would have taught it the Gnosis? Only the Mandate or Consult know it. My own brain betraying my crackpot ideas.

[Wilshire]

Arguably the Quorum don't ever go into the field and they likely seldom use Sorcery.

If you like, moenghus could have taught it some anagogics to bruise it up a bit and just hoped it never had to use sorcery whilst it was there.

I'd argue as well that the Consult's brand of Gnosis differs gently from the Mandate's and they may have suspected the skin-spy if it was seen doing sorceries, even if it was still gnostic cants/wards. The spy was at a great risk of being discovered but being within the Quorum was worth the risk.

[Simas Polchias]

They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion.

I always thought that confusion was meant to hint somethin about IF. Skinspies are pre-souls, unable to comprehend paradox etc. So, their simplicity somehow placed them out of it's reach, complexity of one's mind is a place where IF kicks in? Maybe it's even a story about absolute immunity (skinspies cannot be effected by IF, they cannot see it, they cannot hold description of it in their memory). Like, you know, Silence and humanity relations from Doctor Who universe.

[mrganondorf]

They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion.

I always thought that confusion was meant to hint somethin about IF. Skinspies are pre-souls, unable to comprehend paradox etc. So, their simplicity somehow placed them out of it's reach, complexity of one's mind is a place where IF kicks in? Maybe it's even a story about absolute immunity (skinspies cannot be effected by IF, they cannot see it, they cannot hold description of it in their memory). Like, you know, Silence and humanity relations from Doctor Who universe.

i tend to think that there is nothing special about the skinspies and the IF. Could b they r just hardwired to think of themselves as servants of the IF with no further explanation

[H]

They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion.

I always thought that confusion was meant to hint somethin about IF. Skinspies are pre-souls, unable to comprehend paradox etc. So, their simplicity somehow placed them out of it's reach, complexity of one's mind is a place where IF kicks in? Maybe it's even a story about absolute immunity (skinspies cannot be effected by IF, they cannot see it, they cannot hold description of it in their memory). Like, you know, Silence and humanity relations from Doctor Who universe.

i tend to think that there is nothing special about the skinspies and the IF. Could b they r just hardwired to think of themselves as servants of the IF with no further explanation

True, however, that would be very anti-climactic.

This will make the barest of sense, but I believe that for a skin-spy, the Inverse Fire is the a surrogate soul.  I use soul as 'that which animates.'  In other words, the Inverse Fire is what truly motivates a skin-spy.  They can no more apprehend it's very nature than anyone else on Earwa can really apprehend their own soul though.

[mrganondorf]

They claimed to be Keepers of the Inverse Fire, though the merest question regarding either their “keeping” or their “fire” pitched them into confusion.

I always thought that confusion was meant to hint somethin about IF. Skinspies are pre-souls, unable to comprehend paradox etc. So, their simplicity somehow placed them out of it's reach, complexity of one's mind is a place where IF kicks in? Maybe it's even a story about absolute immunity (skinspies cannot be effected by IF, they cannot see it, they cannot hold description of it in their memory). Like, you know, Silence and humanity relations from Doctor Who universe.

i tend to think that there is nothing special about the skinspies and the IF. Could b they r just hardwired to think of themselves as servants of the IF with no further explanation

True, however, that would be very anti-climactic.

This will make the barest of sense, but I believe that for a skin-spy, the Inverse Fire is the a surrogate soul.  I use soul as 'that which animates.'  In other words, the Inverse Fire is what truly motivates a skin-spy.  They can no more apprehend it's very nature than anyone else on Earwa can really apprehend their own soul though.

would this make the IF a kind of agency???

[H]

would this make the IF a kind of agency???

Well, actually, yes.  It could explain why they are so motivated by carnal desire and such, as that seems to be what the IF reduces most souled things to as well.

[mrganondorf]

would this make the IF a kind of agency???

Well, actually, yes.  It could explain why they are so motivated by carnal desire and such, as that seems to be what the IF reduces most souled things to as well.

Perhaps IF = mama Ark's soul?

[H]

would this make the IF a kind of agency???

Well, actually, yes.  It could explain why they are so motivated by carnal desire and such, as that seems to be what the IF reduces most souled things to as well.

Perhaps IF = mama Ark's soul?

Facinating.  That would explain why it is located in the Ark itself.  Or perhaps the Ark was the original thing powered by the IF.

[Simas Polchias]

That would explain why it is located in the Ark itself.

Quick crackpot, mostly in tune with Bakker's nods to Tolkien.

Heron spear? Narsil. (i'm making a charge, lol)
Skin-spies and IF relations? Smeagorl and The One Ring.

ps Kellhus as Frodo? Oh, I like it. I really like it.

[mrganondorf]

on the subject of techne --  this is gross, but it would totally appeal to the Consult Way:

how do you make a Bashrag?  you grow it inside a the womb of a human woman ... and it kills her coming out or something.  and [something really twisted] until it is sent to Bashrag kindergarten

[geoint]

That would explain why it is located in the Ark itself.

Quick crackpot, mostly in tune with Bakker's nods to Tolkien.

Heron spear? Narsil. (i'm making a charge, lol)
Skin-spies and IF relations? Smeagorl and The One Ring.

ps Kellhus as Frodo? Oh, I like it. I really like it.

Kellhus as Frodo? 


So whose Sam and Gollum?   

[H]

I thought Akka was Frodo.  Or maybe Mimara is Frodo.  Or Sorweel is Frodo?  Maybe everyone is Frodo?