[MSJ]

I think it's what made Kellhus "mad" as a Dûnyain. He steeoped outta mission and said this thing needs to go.

Haha, I like that for some reason. Makes me think of an actor stepping off stage and breaking character to throw out some moron from the audience. Once thats all cleaned up he'll hop back into character and go back to completing the Dunyain mission.

I don't think of it quite like that. I guess this is where the TTT took Kellhus. Moe calls him crazy, but who knows. I know we don't know what Kellhus mission now really is. But, I believe he is gonna do what's best for mankind and that's why Moe thinks him crazy, he's developed emotions. All part of Ses's plan, lol.

[geoffrobro]

ook seems like Skin-spys can see chorae
when Miamara first does the nonman drug, her eye opens when she feels the drug kicking in
 she see's the chorae as a "Tear of god" and asked Soma what he saw. he said " its you im having difficulty seeing with that thing pressed against your skin. you look like a breathing shadow."
he also calls it "a ball of shadow." and when she puts is away, he says "ahh much better."

Does he have a soul?

[SilentRoamer]

We have talked about that before. The common consensus is that the Chorae is cancelling out the light from the Surrilic Point. Of course Soma could have a soul - we know ensoulled skin spies do exist even if they are a rarity.

[profgrape]

Beyond Simas in TTT, has there been a reference to another ensoule Skin Spy?  At its unmasking, Maitha puts forth that it was "...an accident, and anamoly that, thankfully, it's architects have been unable to create."

[Wilshire]

ook seems like Skin-spys can see chorae
when Miamara first does the nonman drug, her eye opens when she feels the drug kicking in
 she see's the chorae as a "Tear of god" and asked Soma what he saw. he said " its you im having difficulty seeing with that thing pressed against your skin. you look like a breathing shadow."
he also calls it "a ball of shadow." and when she puts is away, he says "ahh much better."

Does he have a soul?

We have talked about that before. The common consensus is that the Chorae is cancelling out the light from the Surrilic Point. Of course Soma could have a soul - we know ensoulled skin spies do exist even if they are a rarity.

I'm with SR. The shadow effect is because the only light is sorcerous.

I don't think it has a soul.

Does not having a soul preclude you from seeing the Onta?

[themerchant]

I think Moenghus created that Skin-spy as part of the TTT to get the Mandate onside straight away when Maitha came to collect them so they could all meet up at Shimeh.

[Wilshire]

I think Moenghus created that Skin-spy.

If he was indoctrinated into the Consult and had unfettered access to all of their technology, sure. Otherwise, impossibrue.

[themerchant]

I think Moenghus created that Skin-spy.

If he was indoctrinated into the Consult and had unfettered access to all of their technology, sure. Otherwise, impossibrue.

I disagree, when we see Moenghus we even get to see his lab with Skin-Spies being experimented on. The unmasking of the sorcerous Skin-Spy removes all questions to Maitha motivations in the same way Kellhus saying his name and dreams to Akka silenced his. It's the very reason Maitha turns up and "escorts" the Mandate to shimeh.

[H]

I think Moenghus created that Skin-spy.

If he was indoctrinated into the Consult and had unfettered access to all of their technology, sure. Otherwise, impossibrue.

I disagree, when we see Moenghus we even get to see his lab with Skin-Spies being experimented on. The unmasking of the sorcerous Skin-Spy removes all questions to Maitha motivations in the same way Kellhus saying his name and dreams to Akka silenced his. It's the very reason Maitha turns up and "escorts" the Mandate to shimeh.

Not saying I'm buying this, per se.

However, if we consider the "Meppa is a soul transfered Moe" (a pretty big if) then it might stand to reason that he would have experimented on something beforehand.

Definitely crack-pot, yet still plausible.

[themerchant]

Just to add, When we see the Demon Summoned By Ioykus point of view, we see that the Cish "flow of water" is directly connected to the soul because when it pulls on the thread the soul comes right out with it.

"The manling had no eyes, and yet saw ... saw as it did"

"The manling made a noise of terror, then unleashed his own light:a thread of raw energy. With one hand , Zioz grasped the thread, curious. when he pulled, the soul was yanked from the manling. the light vanished. the meat slapped the floor"

[Wilshire]

I disagree, when we see Moenghus we even get to see his lab with Skin-Spies being experimented on.

What we see is a primitive man with some iron tools in a cave, and you are suggesting that he managed to make the leap to futuristic power sources and gene manipulation. I think not. The skin-spies are Tekne, and no one but the Consult have that.


If you want psukhe magical skin-spies, fine. Just add it to the list of impossible things that the super-moenghus theory entails. But, why stop at these half baked skin-spy replicas? Whats the point of making spies with a weakness? Just make them have real faces that change with super secret, undetectable, undefeatable meta-psukhe.

And then, why bother having a war at all and risk losing? Just make an army of these flesh molders out of your army of Cisharuim and replace every single general, King, and advisor in every 3seas nation, then have them pledge fealty to the all powerful super-moenghus. While he's at it, why not do to all the schools as well. All hail mighty moenghus!

If Moenghus was so powerful, the story would have been about him taking the 3 seas and doing whatever it was he wanted to do with the Consult. But Moe died, and the story is about Kellhus.

The unmasking of the sorcerous Skin-Spy removes all questions to Maitha motivations ... It's the very reason Maitha turns up and "escorts" the Mandate to shimeh.

Moenghus tells us that Maitha is part of his plan. There is no mystery here

in the same way Kellhus saying his name and dreams to Akka silenced his.

??

[themerchant]

I don't want anything, nor am i suggesting Moe can mass-produce skin-spies, create power sources and manipulate genes.I am suggesting that Moe "broke" the conditioning of one and en-souled it and then sent it to the Mandate. Then to gain instant Mandate trust and deliver them to Shimeh Maitha unveils it. All information regarding the skin-spy comes directly from Uncle Holy, who is working under direction of his father (paving the way) at the time.

I'm not claiming a mystery.

Akka's skepticism about Kellhus' claim(when they first meet) that he made a wager with Cnaiur is completely washed away when he hears his name and that he dreamed of Shimeh from afar. In the same way Maithanet turning up at Mandate headquarters unannounced is not questioned because he uncovered a mistakenly en-souled skin-spy.

This is all assuming Moe actually did plan for Kellhus going mad etc. I just feel if that's on the table then so is this.

[H]

I don't want anything, nor am i suggesting Moe can mass-produce skin-spies, create power sources and manipulate genes.I am suggesting that Moe "broke" the conditioning of one and en-souled it and then sent it to the Mandate. Then to gain instant Mandate trust and deliver them to Shimeh Maitha unveils it. All information regarding the skin-spy comes directly from Uncle Holy, who is working under direction of his father (paving the way) at the time.

I'm not claiming a mystery.

Akka's skepticism about Kellhus' claim(when they first meet) that he made a wager with Cnaiur is completely washed away when he hears his name and that he dreamed of Shimeh from afar. In the same way Maithanet turning up at Mandate headquarters unannounced is not questioned because he uncovered a mistakenly en-souled skin-spy.

This is all assuming Moe actually did plan for Kellhus going mad etc. I just feel if that's on the table then so is this.

I'll admit that Maithanet being there is highly suspect.  Also, his reasoning, that "“We learned of this one through our interrogations of the others,” seems like a pretty thin 'excuse.'  Why would your network of spies know where each other was?  Even if you considered them 'undetectable' why you bother to inform them all?  Especially since they have now started to be detected!

It's plausible that the explanation is that Moe somehow 'awakened' one of the skin-spies, then wiped it's memory and set it back out.  The Consult probably viewed this as providence and set it loose into the Mandate.

I admit, this does seem a bit far-fetched.  Then again, the idea that a skin-spy developed a soul on it's own seems even more far-fetched.

[SilentRoamer]

We need to extricate ourselves from the reductionist logic which blinds logical positions in adherence to normal human motivations.

I mean do we really expect the neuro-puncture the Dunyain employed against their effectives would have the same cause/effect deterministic results?

[H]

We need to extricate ourselves from the reductionist logic which blinds logical positions in adherence to normal human motivations.

I mean do we really expect the neuro-puncture the Dunyain employed against their effectives would have the same cause/effect deterministic results?

I'm not sure what you are getting at though?

That we shouldn't apply the logic that a spy network where all cells are informed of each other as implausible.  Again, it isn't impossible, but it does seem impractical.