[MSJ]

That would be interesting too if somehow birth could only occur if Yatwer were in Her natural place in the Outside and bringing Her into Earwa is what prevents birth. 

But then I'm trying to figure out what the other implications would be if one could summon others...like if one summoned the god of disease would disease no longer happen?  That doesn't seem to make as much sense. 

But I do think that the use of the word "summoned" suggests it's some kind of agency from the Outside.

Really never thought of this before, but it really does make a lot of sense. Great speculation!

[Francis Buck]

A handful of half-baked reasons for the Yatwer = No-God idea:

1. TTT glossary entry on The Apocalypse includes the line "In the spring of 2143, the No-God, summoned by means unknown, first drew breath."  The only other cases we've seen that involved summoning dealt with bringing agencies from the Outside into Earwa.

2. There's something fitting about the No-God being a literal inversion of an actual God.

3. Yatwer is the goddess of birth.  And the No-God's existence stopped birth. 

4. The Gods vs. Kellhus are an important theme in the second series.  But the only unequivocal example we have of a God directly intervening in the world is through Yatwer -- why? 

5. Madness flinched when he read my earlier post.

Good stuff. Some thoughts:

1. I also think it implies that something was brought from the Outside. I suspect the No-God already exists there (and has always existed), or something like that.

2. I absolutely believe that the No-God is meant to be an inversion of our stereotypical (semi-Western) notion of God. In TSA, the God is the sum of all souls, all things, the Absolute. It is the creative force behind existence, and it has all the answers. The No-God, on the other hand, is personified Nothingness (as opposed to the Everything-ness that is god). It is an inherent destroyer, a void of being/existence, and it has no answers -- not even about itself.

3. I think Yatwer's true cosmic "opposite" is Gilgaol. As we know, these two are the most popular, and the most powerful. Only they can "seize" a soul. Birth and War can also be looked at as Life and Death, which makes sense of why they're the most powerful of the gods. I think the No-God is equally destructive to both sides though. War thrives on the outflux of souls, Birth on the influx. The No-God breaks the whole system.

4. Building on my earlier thought, I would say we've seen quite a few examples of Gilgaol's presence in Earwa, though not (yet) as directly as Yatwer. There are tons of references to Gilgaol being seen in characters like Cnaiur (whom literally describes having a "second soul" at times when his rage is at maximum overdrive), or other war-like characters. The Knife of Many Hands is even more overt about this with Ratakila.

[profgrape]

I guess the difference is between summon and imprison.  If, perhaps, the God of disease was summoned and imprisoned in a Carapace, it could mean the end of at least some form of disease.

[locke]

Bashrag beat the ground with their great hammers, while Sranc heaved in imbecile masses. They swallowed the surrounding plains, loping in armour of tanned human skin, gibbering like apes, throwing themselves at the ramparts the Men of Kyraneas had made of Mengedda’s ruins. And behind them, the whirlwind … a great winding rope sucking the dun earth into black heavens, elemental and indifferent, roaring ever nearer, come to snuff out the last light of Men.

Come to seal the World shut.

I still don't understand how the No-God works, or what it really is, but I think I am convinced that it does indeed seal the World off from the Outside.  This is why births cannot happen while the No-God exists, because it somehow does not allow the Outside to open, admitting a soul into the World.

Each man, he explained, was a kind of hole in existence, a point where the Outside penetrated the world.

If it's yatwer it works by sealing the outside off from the world, not the other way around.  A distinction with a difference.

[profgrape]

Ok, doubling down on this crackpot: what if *all* of the Gods were inprisoned in the Carapace?  The Consult find a way to gather the "thousand warring splinters" and lock them away.  It offers an alternative explanation for the Gods ignorance of the No-God. And it might explain the Indigo Plague that occurred after the No-God's defeat.

@locke, that's a good point. Only thing I can think is that perhaps the Outside isn't so much a place where Gods and Ciphrang hang out, but instead the collective of what Meppa deems "hungers across the surface of eternity".  So perhaps what's really happening is imprisoning the Outside itself and therefore, sealing the world?

[profgrape]

@FB, I'd never thought of Yatwer and Gilgaol in that way, as the opposite ends of a soul-cycling "machine".  And I totally forgot about the example of Gil from TKOMH.

[H]

I think that this thread will be about as much explanation that we'll get on the No-God. I'm no good at even comprehending such a thing, tbh. I think I agree with H., it has to be something other than we are led to believe.

On another note, why doesn't Kellhus's dream on the circumfix come up in this conversation? Do you guys believe that was Moe or someone else? I truly believe it to be the No-God. And if that's true, it was a physical being described in detail.

ETA: let me clarify myself. I believe the No-God has been speaking to Kellhus. Because he has elevated himself closer and closer to The Absolute. The God, the hundred, the No-God, they all sense him. The No-God wants to use him, so he's reaching out. This further H.'s side of things, I think.

And I think this belongs in the No-God thread. Oh well.

I'm no good at even comprehending such a thing, tbh. I think I agree with H., it has to be something other than we are led to believe.

I'm with you there. The NG is  pretty much a complete mystery to me. It would be best for my sanity to sit out these conversations, but I cant help myself it would seem

On another note, why doesn't Kellhus's dream on the circumfix come up in this conversation? Do you guys believe that was Moe or someone else? I truly believe it to be the No-God. And if that's true, it was a physical being described in detail.

ETA: let me clarify myself. I believe the No-God has been speaking to Kellhus. Because he has elevated himself closer and closer to The Absolute. The God, the hundred, the No-God, they all sense him. The No-God wants to use him, so he's reaching out. This further H.'s side of things, I think.

I forgot about that bit, and I'm actually not sure how it impacts the nature of Mog's powers. Also, the scene is confusing and many assumptions need to be made to make it usable.

I guess that if it was the No-God, it opens up a whole lot of questions. It implies NG was not destroyed, but just dissipated. But how/where? If it communicates via sorcery of some kind, maybe this indicates that it is at least in part a sorcerous being, and indicates that the chorae in the carapace where being used to somehow limit/blind and/or bind it into some kind of corporeal form. If it exists in some kind of dissipated form that still had agency to reach out, why did it do so? What makes Kellhus, especially in TWP, worth reaching out to? That seems to imply that NG wasn't so much a prisoner of the carapace and that it wants to be re-awakened....

I have no answers

I have no answers either. I just seem to think (and looking back at the thread this goes against H.) that if anything, the No-God is more than we're led to believe. Not just something that is at the disposal of The Consult. They may have summoned it, but, they have no control over it. Meaning while it was worldly thing during the First Apocalypse, it ran the show, whatever it is. I think now, its a confused entity on the Outside wanting back in the game. I don't know man, I'm just spitballing, and I really have no evidence other than Kellhus saying he spoke to the damn thing. I think it's what made Kellhus "mad" as a Dûnyain. He steeoped outta mission and said this thing needs to go.

To bring this over here, I do follow that Kellhus was probably speaking to the No-God, not some Moe manipulation there.  However, I don't think it made Kellhus mad.  I think it made Kellhus realize that the true Shortest Path goes through something of the No-God's nature, somehow.  It probably relates to Kellhus attempting to achieve God-hood somehow.

[mrganondorf]

i am not a Lacan expert, but i wonder if Bakker's No-God has anything to do with this (search for 'sardine' to get to the relevant passage):

https://archive.org/stream/Ebooksclub.orgTheFourFundamentalConceptsOfPsychoanalysisTheSeminarOfJacquesLacanBook11/ebooksclub.org__The_Four_Fundamental_Concepts_of_Psychoanalysis__The_Seminar_of_Jacques_Lacan___Book_11__djvu.txt

so a human can 'see' the sardine can but the sardine can does not 'see' the human. something to do with how humans possess subjectivity but that is absent from the sardine can. 

Bakker is always clamoring about the semantic apocalypse and how science is going to ultimately drain away the illusion of human subjectivity.  perhaps the no-god is the individual who is so far reduced by science (tekne) that they no longer possess the illusion of subjectivity and therefore cannot 'see.'  the no-god is tragically desperate to regain this illusion (so it asks "WHAT DO YOU SEE") even while knowing that it cannot return to it's previous state of subjectivity. 

here i am betting that the Consult took Nau-Cayuti or someone like him and did the thing that is done to the guy at the end of Neuropath (NO SPOILERS). 

so the NG is a subjectivity eradicating machine.  no subjectivity = no hell.  problem is, the Consluts don't fully realize what they are in for, they might kill hell, but also destroy themselves (their own subjectivies) along the way. 

pehaps the seswatha/dunyain/cishaurim project is to avoid the status quo (hell is exists) and the Consult solution (subjectivity dies).  if so, i'm betting it fails.  Bakker is writing it, yo.

so killing NG is a mercy killing

[H]

A fortuitous google search (because I am not religious) revealed to me the following Bible passage:

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

I am not a Biblical scholar, but what seems to happen is that God appears in a whirlwind and asks Job a series of rhetorical questions.  Seem familiar?  The significance, I do not know, however, I think the parallel is real...

[Simas Polchias]

But then I'm trying to figure out what the other implications would be if one could summon others...like if one summoned the god of disease would disease no longer happen?  That doesn't seem to make as much sense.

If we suppose Yatwer's extraction from divine mechanism leads to metaphysical nullity of birth, Akkeägni's will... nullify most natural and artificial means of, well, recovery. That's because of Akkeägni's misrepresentation. Here, some lines from PON wiki:

Akkeägni is the God of disease. Also known as the God of a Thousand Hands. Scholars have oft noted the irony that the Priesthood of Disease provides the primary repository of physicians for the Three Seas. How can one at once worship disease and war against it? According to the scriptures of the Cult, the Piranavas, Akkeägni is a so-called Bellicose God, one who favours those who strive against him over sycophants and worshippers.

Both traditions recognize the differences between the Compensatory Gods, who promise direct reward for worship and devotion, the Punitive Gods, who secure sacrifices through the threat of suffering, and the more rare Bellicose Gods, who despise worship as sycophancy and favour those who strive against them.

ps Yatwer is a Compensatory God.

[mrganondorf]

But then I'm trying to figure out what the other implications would be if one could summon others...like if one summoned the god of disease would disease no longer happen?  That doesn't seem to make as much sense.

If we suppose Yatwer's extraction from divine mechanism leads to metaphysical nullity of birth, Akkeägni's will... nullify most natural and artificial means of, well, recovery. That's because of Akkeägni's misrepresentation. Here, some lines from PON wiki:

Akkeägni is the God of disease. Also known as the God of a Thousand Hands. Scholars have oft noted the irony that the Priesthood of Disease provides the primary repository of physicians for the Three Seas. How can one at once worship disease and war against it? According to the scriptures of the Cult, the Piranavas, Akkeägni is a so-called Bellicose God, one who favours those who strive against him over sycophants and worshippers.

Both traditions recognize the differences between the Compensatory Gods, who promise direct reward for worship and devotion, the Punitive Gods, who secure sacrifices through the threat of suffering, and the more rare Bellicose Gods, who despise worship as sycophancy and favour those who strive against them.

ps Yatwer is a Compensatory God.

i would wager that the priests are just categorizing as they see best without actual knowledge of the Outside--could be the gods are just reasonless alpha predators/sadists

[Simas Polchias]

i would wager that the priests are just categorizing as they see best without actual knowledge of the Outside--could be the gods are just reasonless alpha predators/sadists

Actually, you're right. Priest just play games of manipulation. They use human culture, images and fears as means of achieving their-private & church-corporate profit. Even if they believe gods (hell, there is sorcerers in their world), they also know it's safe to lie about gods' opinions and setups. No one of the hundred will Zap! you with lightning for speaking lies or inaccuracies.

But, I'm right too, lol. Priest have darkness, which came before them. And gods came even before it. So, every time worshippers open their mouths it's actually pure godspeak.

ps I like to imagine earwan gods as shattered identity with no integrity and to draw direct paralles between outside-inside and parts of the humain brain. So, yes, they are reasonless, because they are just elements of reason.

[mrganondorf]

i would wager that the priests are just categorizing as they see best without actual knowledge of the Outside--could be the gods are just reasonless alpha predators/sadists

Actually, you're right. Priest just play games of manipulation. They use human culture, images and fears as means of achieving their-private & church-corporate profit. Even if they believe gods (hell, there is sorcerers in their world), they also know it's safe to lie about gods' opinions and setups. No one of the hundred will Zap! you with lightning for speaking lies or inaccuracies.

But, I'm right too, lol. Priest have darkness, which came before them. And gods came even before it. So, every time worshippers open their mouths it's actually pure godspeak.

ps I like to imagine earwan gods as shattered identity with no integrity and to draw direct paralles between outside-inside and parts of the humain brain. So, yes, they are reasonless, because they are just elements of reason.

SP, if u ever end up in Earwa, u r going to have no trouble making money

[Simas Polchias]

SP, if u ever end up in Earwa, u r going to have no trouble making money

Lol.

[mrganondorf]

A fortuitous google search (because I am not religious) revealed to me the following Bible passage:

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

I am not a Biblical scholar, but what seems to happen is that God appears in a whirlwind and asks Job a series of rhetorical questions.  Seem familiar?  The significance, I do not know, however, I think the parallel is real...

H you have to be right, but i don't know what to make of it???

perhaps this points to No-Gog is God ... God trapped in a coffin or God forced to stare into the Inverse Fire or God with his eyes gouged out by whatshis name, the king of Caraskand?  God as reconstituted?  i mean, the Carapace forces all the fragments of God back into a whole and that whole is not very nice?