[mrganondorf]

Enter Esmi, Meppa, Kel and Zeum to hold it all together for any of the Ordeal returning?

i wonder if Kellhus has a plan for return just for show--as in, in order to gain the Great Ordeal's trust, he needs to at least seem to have a return trip plan for the army?

[Wilshire]

Enter Esmi, Meppa, Kel and Zeum to hold it all together for any of the Ordeal returning?

i wonder if Kellhus has a plan for return just for show--as in, in order to gain the Great Ordeal's trust, he needs to at least seem to have a return trip plan for the army?

This seems very likely.

[Garet Jax]

Enter Esmi, Meppa, Kel and Zeum to hold it all together for any of the Ordeal returning?

i wonder if Kellhus has a plan for return just for show--as in, in order to gain the Great Ordeal's trust, he needs to at least seem to have a return trip plan for the army?

Absolute authority upon return after he disposes of the majority of his possible "rivals" by grinding them against the consult. 

[Francis Buck]

I think they'll take a different tack. After a year or two of suddenly greatly intensified activity on the borders of the Steppe, halfway through The White Luck Warrior, the Scylvendi tribes go completely quiet.

I expect to hear of a new King-of-Trbes and a united Horde exploding into the Nansurium to worship and rejoice at the immanent return of Lokung soon.

Man, I forgot about this. I remember the tribes going quiet and all, but the idea of a new, Consult-bolstered Horde storming into the Three Seas (just in time to fuck up everybody's shit, Fanayal included) sounds...awesome, in a horrible way. Despite their utter brutality, I kinda love the Scylvendi. Does that make me weird?

Also, I love the idea of the Scylvendi sending that one son to be a member of the Scions, even though we know for a fact that such a hostage would be utterly meaningless to the Scylvendi themselves, as seen with Cnaiur's reaction to the enslaved Xunnurit all the way back in the first book.

Random tangential question: Did any of Cniaur's children (aside from Lil Moe) survive, that we know of?

[Wilshire]

Cnaiur had many wives, and was certainly of child baring age for several decades as head of the Utemont. He certainly had a decent brood.

[mrganondorf]

I'd be surprised if anyone from the Ordeal made it back. I'm honestly skeptical that Kellhus even planned for a return trip. I could still be surprised though.

me too. if the GO wins, there might still be this huge sranc problem--as in Consult higher ups gone, but minions still teeming.  the GO will be eating sranc meat, at least for a while, on the way back too.  they are going to be so sranced-up that they won't be fit for civilization any more

@ Davias - could be the Consult needed all those erratics for their eons long work and are now sending them into the field because the work is done or they are panicking about the GO's chances?

[The Great Scald]

Man, I forgot about this. I remember the tribes going quiet and all, but the idea of a new, Consult-bolstered Horde storming into the Three Seas (just in time to fuck up everybody's shit, Fanayal included) sounds...awesome, in a horrible way.

This.

We hear a lot about the Scylvendi being the horsemen of the apocalypse, this unstoppable force of destruction, so I'd also like to see that happen on-page. Overrunning all of the Three Seas, wrecking both the Fanim and the Inrithi, and just storming in and burning down civilization. It'd be a great climax to the Momemn storyline, plus it makes the Consult look a lot smarter and Kellhus a lot more machiavellian if he knew this would happen.

Also, I love the idea of the Scylvendi sending that one son to be a member of the Scions, even though we know for a fact that such a hostage would be utterly meaningless to the Scylvendi themselves

Even funnier is that the Scylvendi hostage was the only scion who survived the Sranc battle, apart from Sorweel and Tsoronga.

Random tangential question: Did any of Cniaur's children (aside from Lil Moe) survive, that we know of?

No idea, because we don't know much about Cnaiür's children in the first place. He has a lot of them, though, so some of them should still be around. This is how we're introduced to him: "He owned eight wives, thirty slaves, and three hundred cattle. He had fathered thirty-seven sons, nineteen of the pure blood."

Cnaiür's pre-teen daughter Sanathi is the only one of his kids who's named in the text. He only really thinks about Sanathi and her mother Anissi - the rest of his family goes totally neglected.

(No idea if this is meant to show that Cnaiür's single-minded obsession with Kellhus/Moengus is so overwhelming that he forgets his family, or that the Scylvendi culture is extremely warlike and doesn't care about family sentiment. Or maybe just Bakker not being bothered with endless tertiary characters - while something like Game of Thrones would've named his entire family tree.)

[MSJ]

Well according to some if you like the Scyvendli and Cnaüir in particular, you condone rape. As for any of his brood surviving, the odds are in favor of that. Will we get a Scyvendli hoard that is attached to the Consult? I'd say yes, but I'd never thought of that before. What I keep thinking about is how the Skin-Spies and Aurang befriended Cnaüir. Was that just to learn if the Dûnyain? The the most logical answer. Yet, the ending of Moe and Cnaüir's meeting in Kyudea is so vague and leaves many outcomes to be suggested. If Meppa is not the creation of Moe+Cnaüir, tell me what would screw with Kellhus's mind more than him seeing Cnaüir in TUC. Why wouldn't one of the Skin-Spies used Cnaüir? Cnaüir more than anyone is a threat to Kellhus. Its another reason I'm a firm believer in Moe+Cnaüir=Meppa. The Skin-Spies knew that Kellhus feared what Cnaüir knew about him and you think they'd use that to their advantage.

[mrganondorf]

Well according to some if you like the Scyvendli and Cnaüir in particular, you condone rape. As for any of his brood surviving, the odds are in favor of that. Will we get a Scyvendli hoard that is attached to the Consult? I'd say yes, but I'd never thought of that before. What I keep thinking about is how the Skin-Spies and Aurang befriended Cnaüir. Was that just to learn if the Dûnyain? The the most logical answer. Yet, the ending of Moe and Cnaüir's meeting in Kyudea is so vague and leaves many outcomes to be suggested. If Meppa is not the creation of Moe+Cnaüir, tell me what would screw with Kellhus's mind more than him seeing Cnaüir in TUC. Why wouldn't one of the Skin-Spies used Cnaüir? Cnaüir more than anyone is a threat to Kellhus. Its another reason I'm a firm believer in Moe+Cnaüir=Meppa. The Skin-Spies knew that Kellhus feared what Cnaüir knew about him and you think they'd use that to their advantage.

are hinting that the Consult could use a skin-spy to appear as Cnaiur to fuck with Kellhus head?  that would be cool!  i don't know if it has been explored, but has anyone considered that Moe's soul could have fled his body and traveled into one of the skin-spies in kyudea?  that would be pretty neat.  they have an empty slot for a soul and bodies capable of dunyain-level physical feats.

i'm not sure about the Scylvendi showing back up in a significant way.  it's only been 19 years since they were crushed and Kellhus has been the military mind on watch the whole time.  i wonder if Esmi's concern about the Scylvendi is foreshadowing or just decoy.  could be that Kellhus has, to some degree, forcefully reorganized the tribes into a more hierarchical system, like he did with the Mandate.  Tinnurit, could be really important in that scheme.

if using a chorae on a sorcerer near a soulless derived critter means the sorcerer's soul has an opportunity to inhabit the derived thingy, then Kellhus may have the WLW figured out.  get stabbed by WLW.  get choraed by Zeumi prince, jump ship to nearby skin-spy he's been keeping around just for this purpose, voila!

maybe Kellhus will have Proyas killed and replaced by a skin-spy (one he's reprogrammed), so Kellhus can even pretend to be dead and act like he's Proyas carrying on the martyred Warrior Prophet's great scheme.  could be a real motivator for the troops.  Kellhus-as-Proyas could even pretend that the WP miraculously gave him the metagnosis as a sign that they should complete the mission

could be Kellhus has replaced all kinds of people around him with turned skin-spies: Iyokus maybe, maybe Esmi is one, just programmed to think that it isn't a skin-spy, let's see how Esmi responds to a paradox

Saccarees and Sarl might work

[MSJ]

Yes ,that's exactly what I was implying. If the Skin-Spies use whoever they can to manipulate situations, than why not Cnaüir? Its just an obviously thing to do.

[themerchant]

The thing I keep thinking though is we've not really seen the "real" battle yet. Which is the Battle Kellhus is really fighting atm (hence no PoV), while ostensibly fighting the visible battle of stopping the No-God being resurrected.  Proyas even thinks about him fighting a battle of maddening subtlety or realizes it.

There's still a missing part to the battle that we're not privy too , and which i'm sure the TUC will finally let us know. I imagine it will all go to shit. The Great Ordeal is being lured to Dagliash. Where it will be almost obliterated but ultimately saved by Nonman Chariots who came because Mimara child is born which reminds them of something/or Serwe seduces one and sleeps with them and gets pregnant. Kellhus goes away to do whatever the real battle is.

Yeah i really want to know what the real battle is. Though the Scylvendi attacking 3 seas means most of humanity is fighting and dying at some place or another.

I also don't think the Consult have much chance against Kellhus in a game of wits. I also think he has bigger fish to fry.

Also way back in the first trilogy, Kellhus looked deeply into Akka and saw his hidden strength, seeing everyone thought him weak, but some men had to be hewn by experience.  Let's be honest between Seswatha, first holy war and the slog of slogs he;s ready to step up, vindicated by Kellhus to Proyas. Undefeated in sorcerous battle (he didn't have to fight straight from bed) be it Cish, Scarlet schoolman, imperial Saik, Father of Dragons, Nonman King, sranc, bashrag, imperial columns. Qirri-strength Akka is here and he is dreamy funky shit.

or him and mimara sneak there way to golgerath or soemthing.

Basically i don't know.

[mrganondorf]

Yes ,that's exactly what I was implying. If the Skin-Spies use whoever they can to manipulate situations, than why not Cnaüir? Its just an obviously thing to do.

Kellhus confronted by 4 dozen Cnaiurs at Dagliash!

@ themerchant - if Kellhus suspects treason from the Nonmen, then maybe the Niom is the way to outmaneuver them.  he agrees to the Niom, so the nonmen send their best to watch the show, Kellhus disapparates and showes up at Ishterebinth, kicks ass with Serwa while all the Ishroi are divided between their home and the battle, disapparates with Serwa to appear at the Ark, kills/joins/enslaves Shauriatus, becomes Mog!

[mrganondorf]

Was musing about the part where we are told that the sranc hoard is so large that it could never realize that it had been defeated.  That part really gets me.  In TWP things wrap up just the way they do because of the revelation of "indomitable belief" but the secret of battle doesn't apply to the sranc.  The hoard is apparently so large that the Great Ordeal's beliefs are neutered. 

I wonder where Bakker is going with that.  He's worked hard to create this world where belief can effect reality but now he's throwing the believers into a situation where their belief would seem to matter not at all.  Will we see a manifestation of belief that is so incredible that it makes the breaking of the Siege of Caraskand look feeble?  Or is Bakker setting up the inevitable moment when belief finds it's extreme limitation?

[locke]

Well I have always maintained that cnaiurs secret of battle was just a delusion, so it makes since that having all the feelings doesn't beat having all the numbers.


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[The Sharmat]

Well I have always maintained that cnaiurs secret of battle was just a delusion, so it makes since that having all the feelings doesn't beat having all the numbers.


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It is a delusion. But it's a delusion that makes real. A viramsata, was it, that the Nilnameshi called it? The Horde is by necessity too big of an entity to ever come to a conclusion about winning or losing, so it's impenetrable to this tactic. They're not an army or a civilization. They're just a swarm. Ignorance is strength etc etc