[SilentRoamer]

Ok so just dropping a potential crackpot (less so in certain elements):

Titirga was blind as a child and was described as a different mark, I cannot remember the exact terminology think it was "muted" or "rinsed". I think of this as something to do with him being the first Cishaurim. Think on this, if he was also a Gnostic Sorceror as well as a Cishaurim, with his hot-headedness evident in the Atrocity Tales, would other Sorcerors even notice?

He has also being described as "grasping that which shouldn't be grasped" which I always thought hinted at Daimotic Sorcery. Interesting choice of the word Grasping as well - drawing parallels to Sesswathas Heart, which I think is a Humuncolous, wouldn't a Humuncolous be an Inward bound Ciphrang?

Just thought old Nostril Flaring, Caller of the Famed Voice, Weilder of the False Sun, Wearer of the Odd Mark, Grasper of the Shouldn'a'be Grasped Titirga the Fallen Hero deserved a bit of bigging up 

[EDIT Madness]: Title.

[Wilshire]

You left out him being blind as a child. I think there must be some connection with his mark, blindness, and Cishaurim. Like you said, there would be no parallel for schoolmen of that age to even come up with the that idea.

I don't think he had any connection to Diamotic sorcery. I don't think the Gnostic schools would have needed that to bolster their power. On top of that, it was a banned branch of sorcery, like the Aporos, and most of the schools seemed to obey the rules their Quya masters set down for them.

[SilentRoamer]

I did say he was blind Wilshire I think you must have missed it.

I appreciate what you are saying about Gnostic power and Quya laws but lets not forget Titirga was VERY powerful - I will need to re-read but sure there is a passage which mentions this. Maybe Titirga didn't explore the Daimos but maybe he grasped it when he shouldn't have.

[Wilshire]

I think the alien-ness of his powers came from some connection with the Psuke. Titirga is what makes me think that the Psuke, if it had enough to time develop and was in the right hands, could have been more powerful than the Gnosis. Or maybe the combination of Gnosis and Psuke, using intellect and emotion, could have even surpassed the Meta Gnosis.

[SilentRoamer]

I think the alien-ness of his powers came from some connection with the Psuke. Titirga is what makes me think that the Psuke, if it had enough to time develop and was in the right hands, could have been more powerful than the Gnosis. Or maybe the combination of Gnosis and Psuke, using intellect and emotion, could have even surpassed the Meta Gnosis.

I have been thinking about Psukhe + Gnosis.

On a similar vein of thought - do you think Kellhus would be constrained with the Psukhe like Moenghus was?

I don't know why but I have a feeling that Kellhus feels real emotions now and is essentially a Dunyain with emotional capability - maybe this is one of the reasons Kellhus deludes himself so often.

[Wilshire]

Might be so, he does seem to have passions. Moe claimed that the Dunyain have been trying to breed out emotions, and I tend to believe a lot of what he said at the end of TTT. I'm not one of those that thinks everything he said was a lie, and take the opposite to be true...

Even if Kellhus might be able to use the Psuke, he likely extinguished any hope of learning it himself via the destruction of Shimeh and the Cish Primaries.. That said, if there was any way for him to learn, he would have at least tried. No reason for him not to spend a few days seeing if he could grasp that which no other living schoolman could (except Meppa I guess). Unmarked sorcery could certainly have its uses... Ace in the hole? WLW's blindspot?

[SilentRoamer]

Might be so, he does seem to have passions. Moe claimed that the Dunyain have been trying to breed out emotions, and I tend to believe a lot of what he said at the end of TTT. I'm not one of those that thinks everything he said was a lie, and take the opposite to be true...

Even if Kellhus might be able to use the Psuke, he likely extinguished any hope of learning it himself via the destruction of Shimeh and the Cish Primaries.. That said, if there was any way for him to learn, he would have at least tried. No reason for him not to spend a few days seeing if he could grasp that which no other living schoolman could (except Meppa I guess). Unmarked sorcery could certainly have its uses... Ace in the hole? WLW's blindspot?

I tend to believe a lot of what Moe said but one problem for me is the passage in TDTCB where Kellhus as a boy is trying to hit the Pragma with a stick and the language is very playful. I tend to think of this as a mistake or a subtle foreshadowing because other than those those few passages the evidence for lack of emotional response as part of the Dunyain concept of Logos is undeniable.

Kellhus definetely has some passions, you seem them in him as a boy, you definetely see them with Serwe and then with Esmenet - both from his PoV which I trust as the only reliable narrative on Kellhus.

If he wasn't unaffected by Chorae after his Circumfixion I would swear he went Cish without the Blindness and had a Revelation similar to Fane. I think you are right though, no Psukhe for Kellhus.

Yeah Meppa kills the WLW because the gods cant see what he will do +1 Team Kellhus - Sorting his House

[Wilshire]

I am convinced that there is going to be a WLW blind spot. It is so eAsyfor the reader to assume the omnipotence of gods, even when a we know it is false, and the send that it is revealed will be awesome. Same thing, though, goes for Kellhus. Eventually, something unexpected wi happen, though I think him more capable of dealing with it than the gods, because be is aware of his own fallibility.


As per emotions an the dubyain training,  remember tht the boys are not full dunyain yet. (Or so I remember). We know that the dunyain have not yet successfully bred out emotions, and as such they must train the children, the uninitiated, in a manner more palatable to the human psyhe

[mrganondorf]

Great point SR!  I wonder if the

"grasping that which shouldn't be grasped"

is something like the aporos?

But you may be right: Seswatha's heart = daimos container sounds awfully appealing.

This would be wonderfully ironic, Achamian and all of the Mandate are damned because they are possessed of a demonic entity!  What Mimara sees with the judging eye has nothing to do with Akka's deeds or his purpose and everything to do with what really inhabits his flesh (albeit in ignorance).  Akka IS like the Wathi doll, but with a demon in a human's body!  It would make since for Seswatha to tell his followers to stay away from the daimotic arts so they wouldn't stumble upon the very method he uses!  Kellhus must have guessed it pretty quick tho...

[Wilshire]

Kellhus must have guessed it pretty quick tho...

Not sure how the hell he would have figured all that out before he began studying sorcery more deeply, but it at least provides us with a explanation as to how he convinced Seswatha to let Akka teach him (if that is indeed what happened). "Teach me or I'll tell everyone your secret" seems like a pretty good bargaining chip.

[mrganondorf]

Derp, I didn't see that as a bargaining chip.  Of course!  Kellhus in the unique position of having the gnosis without grasping the heart will perhaps be able to reveal more about Seswatha and what he's hidden from the reader.

[Seökti]

First of all I do think Kellhus would be limited by the Psûkhe, after all his passions are almost entirely subject to his persona.  Second, I'm not sure Titirga is cishaurim or even that he had Cishaurim-like powers so much as he worship the spaces between gods like the nonmen.  We have to remember in the atrocity tale Titirga was the strongest sorcerer 'to ever walk the ground', Ever.  He may have been able to propel his sorcery further by using something like the Psûkhe but ultimately his sorcery DID bear the stain, just not as deeply, so he would have definitely been using the Gnosis.  Also, Kellhus is also likely a stronger user due to the multiple inutterals.  Who knows how many he can use simultaneously now!

[Wilshire]

The stain is a pretty big sticking point. If he was just using the Gnosis, it would be like all the other Marks. There has never been an alternate description of the Quya mark, or any reason to believe that they are stained differently, and they certainly worshiped the way you say Titirga does.

For those reasons, I belive there must be another explanation, weather its Psuke or otherwise. Titirga was doing something no schoolman has ever done before or since, and a mixing of passion and intellect, gnosis and psuke, seems reasonable to me. Like watering down the stain, his mark remains, but is lessened.

[mrganondorf]

The stain is a pretty big sticking point. If he was just using the Gnosis, it would be like all the other Marks. There has never been an alternate description of the Quya mark, or any reason to believe that they are stained differently, and they certainly worshiped the way you say Titirga does.

For those reasons, I belive there must be another explanation, weather its Psuke or otherwise. Titirga was doing something no schoolman has ever done before or since, and a mixing of passion and intellect, gnosis and psuke, seems reasonable to me. Like watering down the stain, his mark remains, but is lessened.

i think you're right that it has to be something more, BUT...

if Titirga's strength and mark come from nothing more than "a mixing of passion and intellect" maybe we'll a rinsed out mark on Serwa

[Wilshire]

What makes Serwa different than other sorcerers and/or Kellhus himself? I'm sure every schoolmen has passion, but Titirga was somehow unique in his ability to mix the two magically, if indeed he was using some kind of psukhe-precursor.