[profgrape]

A potential theory on the Moe/Meppa connection: Moe might have hidden him away with the intent of his being Kellhus' assassin. 

[H]

I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.

In my mind, it's the change in perspective that makes blindness in Earwa special.  Losing sight means you rely more on the rest of the senses, are less inclined to be swayed by appearances.  See Xin's blindness for example, his comment about smelling asses.  While it's a joke, it's really not; once the appearance is gone, we all shit, i.e., we're all made of the same crap.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.

And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.

You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.


I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.

I think it's less that blindness is an advantage, per se, it's just a paradigm shift.  Sometimes that might be an advantage, sometimes (OK, actually most of the time) not.  That doesn't mean that Moe's blindness made him more powerful, but it does mean he had a different perspective, a different perceptive, view of the world.

I'm not buying Moe as still a prime mover past Kyudea.  But I'm also not buying the Kyudea incident at face value.

I'm not buying Meppa as a random shelp that the Solitary God just happened to find, but I'm also not buying, per se, that he is Moe's physical form, only entertaining the possibility of perhaps some sort of transference.

A potential theory on the Moe/Meppa connection: Moe might have hidden him away with the intent of his being Kellhus' assassin. 

I had thought of a similar thing, that Meppa could have been some kind of Cishaurim back-up plan, if not Moe's.

[themerchant]

Something that always stood out for me,in a small way, was Moe hearing Cnaiur and the SkinSpies before Kellhus did, i always thought that was a shout to other senses being better after losing one. that might be a myth though.

Also if Kellhus recognised Cnaiur from his heartbeat could Moe have done so?

[profgrape]

It's not that your hearing is better, exactly. Only that we can use what we hear to generate a mental conception of space -- seeing with your ears, in a sense.  So more of a brain thing than an ear thing.

I can only imagine that a blind dunyain would have far greater spatial awareness than one would think.

[Wilshire]

I can only imagine that a blind dunyain would have far greater spatial awareness than one would think.

Several known cases of blind people learning to use echolocation to 'see' - literally making audible clicks to form mental images of the surroundings. I'm sure a Dunyain would be quite efficient at moving around in the dark.

Something that always stood out for me,in a small way, was Moe hearing Cnaiur and the SkinSpies before Kellhus did, i always thought that was a shout to other senses being better after losing one. that might be a myth though.

Also if Kellhus recognised Cnaiur from his heartbeat could Moe have done so?

I agree, and like profgrape mentions, I believe the brain re-defines unsused section of the brain, that would have been used for sight or what have you, to work with other sensory inputs. So basically the brain space allocated for the remaining senses is augmented. He would be able to hear, and like Xin says, smell, etc., better than Kellhus.

[locke]

The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

 Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight.  However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.

Ultimately,  kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.

And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
 
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.

I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.

And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.

You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.


I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.

Iirc, we know the dunyain manipulate sensory deprivation,  seemingly specifically highlighting blindness from the trial of the thousand thousand halls kellhus obliquely refers to.

I think subjective makes reality theories are way off and directly refuted by the text in kellhus and aurangs conversation.

The thousandfold thought is described as a rule change to replace one religious lie with a new religious lie, it is not making new reality, it is facilitating a population belief shift.

I think sight is blindness,  because sight enforces self-deception.

Sight does not come before. Darkness comes before. 

In other words blindness comes before.

The whole dunyain mythos of "the darkness that comes before" is basically an explicit textual statement of the value of blindness and the centrality of blindness as a highly regarded dunyain value.

[Wilshire]

I think sight is blindness,  because sight enforces self-deception.

Sight does not come before. Darkness comes before. 

In other words blindness comes before.

The whole dunyain mythos of "the darkness that comes before" is basically an explicit textual statement of the value of blindness and the centrality of blindness as a highly regarded dunyain value.

If that is in fact the case, then as Blackstone mentions, why aren't all the Dunyain blind? To me that seems like a pretty large leap of faith to say darkness=blindness. Aren't you taking something completely metaphorical (ie darkness - meaning ignorance and/or something unknowable) and equating it with something narrow and concrete?

Why does darkness = blindness from the Dunyain perspective? Why not darkness = caves, deep oceans, black skinned peoples, night, black bears, or any other noun that is dark, if darkness has to be anything so specific?

If they meant, specifically, that "blindness comes before", wouldn't they have just gone with that instead of bothers with the vague metaphor of darkness? That doesn't make sense to me.
It explicitly says darkness, which you are interpreting through a chain of reasoning to equate to blindness. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but wouldnt that be an implicit reference? (not that the distinction is important since I know what you're saying and I'm probably wrong since I'm no good at word games).

We have instances of blind people just being blind people, like Xin. And also, non-blind people being special, like Sorweel or pick anyone else. What necessitates the blind connection to Dunyain mythos and their specialness in Earwa?

Anyway, the first thing you said is that sight=blindness.
So you're saying sight=blindness, blindness=darkness, therefore sight="the darkness that comes before"? . Again just playing with your words.

The thousandfold thought is described as a rule change to replace one religious lie with a new religious lie, it is not making new reality, it is facilitating a population belief shift.

Which is great, except that Earwa is a meaningful world. Wouldn't that make a popular belief shift far more important? Also, see below

I think subjective makes reality theories are way off and directly refuted by the text in kellhus and aurangs conversation.

Then what does a 'meaningful world' actually mean? Or are you saying Earwa is functionally the same as our meaningless world? I admit, its not a topic I understand at all, so I could use a bit of a primer on your thoughts.

Iirc, we know the dunyain manipulate sensory deprivation,  seemingly specifically highlighting blindness from the trial of the thousand thousand halls kellhus obliquely refers to.

They certainly do, but why is blindness the most important thing here? I don't remember the timeline exactly, but is the thousand thousand halls trial the first major trial or the last? I thought the "the logos is without beginning or end" mantra meditation was the culmination of the dunyain training.
If TTH is the final trial, then its a fair point. In that case, I'd argue its just a physical challenge to further test them, rather than the blindness itself being whats important, but I don't think there's any way to reconcile our two POVs in this particular instance.

[locke]

Awesome finding that word game hole. I loled

A meaningful world doesn't have to equate to a belief makes reality world.

[MSJ]

Wilshire the few of us that can see the truth that Meppa is a direct result of what went down in Kyudea do not have to sparse words. Darkness clearly equals blindness. You and Blackstone can set a wallow in your denial, come up with crazy counter arguments. Locke, H and I are very comfortable knowing that when TUC is finished we will have prophesied the enigma that is Meppa. Lol, I love this back and forth. All in good nature her at SA, which is why I love this place. Except for that Blackstone, who will not heed my wisdom. Lol. Cheers. I really do have some more thoughts to add but have to run to work.

[Blackstone]

Wilshire the few of us that can see the truth that Meppa is a direct result of what went down in Kyudea do not have to sparse words. Darkness clearly equals blindness. You and Blackstone can set a wallow in your denial, come up with crazy counter arguments. Locke, H and I are very comfortable knowing that when TUC is finished we will have prophesied the enigma that is Meppa. Lol, I love this back and forth. All in good nature her at SA, which is why I love this place. Except for that Blackstone, who will not heed my wisdom. Lol. Cheers. I really do have some more thoughts to add but have to run to work.

HA! We shall see, my friend. We shall see.

[geoffrobro]

The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

 Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight.  However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.

Ultimately,  kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.

And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
 
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.

I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.

And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.

You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.


I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.

Iirc, we know the dunyain manipulate sensory deprivation,  seemingly specifically highlighting blindness from the trial of the thousand thousand halls kellhus obliquely refers to.

I think subjective makes reality theories are way off and directly refuted by the text in kellhus and aurangs conversation.

The thousandfold thought is described as a rule change to replace one religious lie with a new religious lie, it is not making new reality, it is facilitating a population belief shift.

I think sight is blindness,  because sight enforces self-deception.

Sight does not come before. Darkness comes before. 

In other words blindness comes before.

The whole dunyain mythos of "the darkness that comes before" is basically an explicit textual statement of the value of blindness and the centrality of blindness as a highly regarded dunyain value.

Dunyain and blindness, my mind jumps to a couple parts in the books, most of which you have all covered. But the part when The Holy War first enters Caraskand and Kellhus is being chased by the group of skin-spies. In the darkness of that house Kellhus gain an advantage over the Skin-spies in the dark. As if he was trained to fight in pitch black darkness.
And maybe the "trail in the wildness" Kellhus goes thru at the beginning of the series was to learn that witnessing the world, that blindness is truer then vision in Earwa, but Kellhus failed. 

[Somnambulist]

Folks, the debate is over.  I figured out who Meppa is without a doubt.  Look inside only if you want to rot your soul FOREVER.

(click to show/hide)

I told you.  Now you have to live with that shit.

[Blackstone]

Folks, the debate is over.  I figured out who Meppa is without a doubt.  Look inside only if you want to rot your soul FOREVER.

(click to show/hide)

I told you.  Now you have to live with that shit.

Ha ha ha. Awesome.