[MSJ]

Well, look at the bright side of things. After the next two books in sure I'll be able to say, "I told ya so!". Lol, or vice versa.

[H]

Well, while it often doesn't seem like it, I am not a real adherent to the "Moe is and was behind everything" theory.  But I also don't buy that the Kyudea conversation and events were Kellhus in control and Moe simply being out-witted in a sense and overmatched.  I feel like Moe had conditioned Kyudea and was ready and that events never were completely beyond what he had figured, even if they possibly didn't turn out exactly as he wanted.

That being said, Meppa's lack of memory is, in my mind, one of two things really, either a total red-herring or deeply meaningful.  I don't see why that red-herring would even need to be there though, Bakker doesn't seem like the kind of author just to put things in there to just fuck with us.  Therefor, I feel like Meppa's origin is important.  The other most important Cishaurim that we know of was Moe.  Therefor, a Moe-Meppa connection seems plausible to me, even if it raises some odd questions about the Psukhe, soul transfers, and Cnaiur.

I just can't believe that Meppa stumbles out of the desert a very powerful Cishaurim with no past memory and that isn't something very important.  Even if Meppa isn't Moe, I still think something was up with connection between the two, somehow.  There is the possibility that the rest of the Cishaurim, realizing that Shimeh was lost and the rest of them doomed, hid Meppa, but that doesn't really fit with their MO, in my mind.  I could see Moe doing such a thing though.

Then again, we could just be off and Meppa really is sent by the Solitary God and his vast supply of Water true divine dispensation.  Why lose his memory then?  Well, so that he'd be singular in his purpose of representing the Solitary God.

[profgrape]

Then again, we could just be off and Meppa really is sent by the Solitary God and his vast supply of Water true divine dispensation.  Why lose his memory then?  Well, so that he'd be singular in his purpose of representing the Solitary God.

That theory has recently become my favorite.  I got to thinking, "what if the Gods are behind everything?"  And then assigned a God to each major force in TAA.  The Solitary God is the logical option for Fanayal and Meppa.

[locke]

The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

 Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight.  However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.

Ultimately,  kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.

And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
 
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.

[H]

Then again, we could just be off and Meppa really is sent by the Solitary God and his vast supply of Water true divine dispensation.  Why lose his memory then?  Well, so that he'd be singular in his purpose of representing the Solitary God.

That theory has recently become my favorite.  I got to thinking, "what if the Gods are behind everything?"  And then assigned a God to each major force in TAA.  The Solitary God is the logical option for Fanayal and Meppa.

Yeah, I mean, it's got the kind of ring that the WLW and Judging Eye have, not to mention whatever Kel's voice is and whatever Sorweel will become.  I still have the bias that he must have been connected somehow besides just "chosen by the Solitary God" but I admit it's as plausible, if not more so, as anything else.

[Blackstone]

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.

[MSJ]

Not that it's an advantage. Just that Kellhus is blind to the advantages it offers. Have you read Locke's stuff on Kellhus's fallibility? Good reading, and true. Kellhus is wrong many times throughout PoN. I'm not trying to convince you and hell you could very well be right, Blackstone. I just believe there is ton of evidence to the contrary.

ETA: summon Madness to provide link

[MSJ]

That being said, Meppa's lack of memory is, in my mind, one of two things really, either a total red-herring or deeply meaningful.  I don't see why that red-herring would even need to be there though, Bakker doesn't seem like the kind of author just to put things in there to just fuck with us.  Therefor, I feel like Meppa's origin is important.  The other most important Cishaurim that we know of was Moe.  Therefor, a Moe-Meppa connection seems plausible to me, even if it raises some odd questions about the Psukhe, soul transfers, and Cnaiur.

Well said H, and I wish I could put my thoughts to pan as well as you. Anyhow, this is crucial to me also. If Meppa was just the last Cishaurim who was his away and found his way to Fanayal, there would be nothing in TAE to even assume something want down in Kyudea. Now, a wondering Cish who has no memory and has an ocean of Water to dispense, piques my interest. Because, the one thing Moe was lacking to become a powerful Cish was passion. And, Cnaüir was full of it. If you ask why I think the chorae was involved in this, is because Moe knew Cnaüir would have his chorae. Also, themerchant's idea of chorae involving the souls of the unborn makes it even more compelling.

As for Meppa just being the Solitary God's avatar, well that could very well be the case. I just feel as we discuss these books, more and more evidence stacks up for Meppa being a product of Moe's plans in Kyudea.

[profgrape]

I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal?  I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs.  But what's the motive?

[MSJ]

I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal?  I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs.  But what's the motive?

The only thing I can think of is to keep the empire from totally destroying itself. To keep some sense of stability while the Great Ordeal is away.

ETA: An eventuality that Kellhus has admitted to having no answer for. What happens ......happens.

[Blackstone]

I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal?  I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs.  But what's the motive?

The only thing I can think of is to keep the empire from totally destroying itself. To keep some sense of stability while the Great Ordeal is away.

ETA: An eventuality that Kellhus has admitted to having no answer for. What happens ......happens.

But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.

[MSJ]

But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.

In all honesty buddy, I have absolutely no clue. I'm just spitballing here. If I Could out think the RSB I'd be writing my own novels. Pure speculation, and what little bit I can pull outta thin air.

[H]

I think the question, MSJ, is that if Meppa is product of Moe's plans, what is the goal?  I'm totally with you in that there are potential signs.  But what's the motive?

The only thing I can think of is to keep the empire from totally destroying itself. To keep some sense of stability while the Great Ordeal is away.

ETA: An eventuality that Kellhus has admitted to having no answer for. What happens ......happens.

But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.

Well, it could be that Moe simply (intentionally or not) created a vessel for the Solitary God to pour all that Water into.  It doesn't necessarily have to be that Moe is actually guiding Meppa or anything, if (a big if) they are in fact connected.

[Blackstone]

But why would Moe care? I see where Kellhus is coming from with this: he can't both keep the empire together and destroy the Consult.

In all honesty buddy, I have absolutely no clue. I'm just spitballing here. If I Could out think the RSB I'd be writing my own novels. Pure speculation, and what little bit I can pull outta thin air.

Ha ha. Touche. Same here.

[Wilshire]

The entire genesis point for me in causing me to subject Kellhus to skepticism originates from the total assumption that sight is superior and that moe was crippled by his lack of sight.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

 Kellhus never questions his eyes, never questions what his eyes tell him. He ALWAYS believes his eyes. and this means he is subject to inherent cognitive traps in considering moe. He puts so much value on eyes he assumes there is no value to blindness relative to the value he places on sight.  However the reader has been informed many times that in this world there is tremendous value in blindness.

Ultimately,  kellhus reliance on his eyes means he is blind to his own blindspots, easy to deceive and manipulate by someone with awareness of these limitations kellhus suffers from.

And being aware that oneself and others are blind to their own blindspots and thus can be manipulated easily is sort of the entire essence of the dunyain ethos.
 
Kellhus just misses the oneself bit, which is the crucial bit.

I think this is a pretty good point. Unfortunately, there are so few details given about what makes blindness special. It certainly is, but the how and why escape me. It seems like a logical argument that whatever makes blindness special is tied to something outside the reach of the Dunyain. Things like the JE, and the Psukhe, that remain outside their grasp, if only for plot reasons.

I think there is a very good textual argument that in this world sight is profoundly deceiving and more importantly that sight is inherently deceiving.

I'm of the opinion that if losing your sight was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind.

And I think this is a big reason why. Moe cannot have been the first Dunyain to go blind. Now, Moe was blinded later in life, after he knew about the Outside, and sorcery, so its entirely possible that when he was blinded something extraordinary happened.

You're point about Kellhus being deceived by his sight is particularly salient, though I think potentially less important that you're suggesting. Is Kellhus deceived by his sight? Absolutely, just look at this conversation when he says that he sees the halos around his hands but muses that its strange they cast no light. However, I think that the deception is unimportant. Since Earwa is a meaningful world, being deceived is more important that being correct. Because Kellhus sees the world that everyone else sees, and he buys into the same biases as everyone else (even the ones he created), the fact of his deception is no longer relevant. Subjective realites become objective realities, and by keeping oneself outside of it, they lose the ability to interact with the new reality. Objective reality becomes subjective.


I think I'm losing track of the path I set out on. What was my point? Anyway, I've discounted the possibility of Moenghus still being in play, mostly for my own sanity and enjoyment, as the other possibilities seem more interesting to me. As such, I can probably justify away any theory that contradicts that fundamental belief... Though I do always enjoy the discussion the disagreement always brings about.