[H]

It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

Well, the logical answer is that the Consult taught it.  Following what stands to be logical to me is, Moe somehow ensouls what will become the Simas-agent.  He wipes it's memory after the fact and sends it back to the Consult, knowing that they will certainly send it into the Mandate, which will allow them to burrow deeper, meaning that Kellhus' ascent will be made easier (the Mandate being discredited is to his benefit in acquiring the Gnosis/not being recognized as the Harbinger sooner/less Mandate agents around).

The Consult get their gift, the Simas agent is taught enough Gnosis by the Consult to mark it's soul, then it replaces Simas at some point.  Moe wouldn't know which one of them was, but Maith is quick enough to pick out the right one at the moment anyway.  I doubt the Simas-agent would need to work too much sorcery anyway.

[themerchant]

A point i made last year in the other thread (that i forgot i made) was the Mandate all get a soul transfer when they grasp the heart.

[MSJ]

It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

Well, the logical answer is that the Consult taught it.  Following what stands to be logical to me is, Moe somehow ensouls what will become the Simas-agent.  He wipes it's memory after the fact and sends it back to the Consult, knowing that they will certainly send it into the Mandate, which will allow them to burrow deeper, meaning that Kellhus' ascent will be made easier (the Mandate being discredited is to his benefit in acquiring the Gnosis/not being recognized as the Harbinger sooner/less Mandate agents around).

The Consult get their gift, the Simas agent is taught enough Gnosis by the Consult to mark it's soul, then it replaces Simas at some point.  Moe wouldn't know which one of them was, but Maith is quick enough to pick out the right one at the moment anyway.  I doubt the Simas-agent would need to work too much sorcery anyway.

Whoa, whoa whoa, hold your horses. The Consult did not teach Simas the Gnosis. The only person to learn the Gnosis without grasping the heart is Kellhus. You have to grasp Seswatha's heart to learn the Gnosis.

[themerchant]

You don't need to grasp the heart do you?

Having grasped his heart makes the Persemiota (the meaning fixing meditative techniques which  thanks to Seswatha Humocolous within them, the Mandate largely ignore) easier but not impossible if you have not grasped it. It's in TTT ,I think when Kellhus and Akka talk magic.

Some of the spelling might be a bit off, i'm terrible.

[MSJ]

Yes you do. Thats why the Mandate have held onto the Gnosis for so long. Why the other schools envy them so. Its why Kellhus had to speak to Seswatha or whatever he did that allowed Akka to teach him the Gnosis.

[Blackstone]

You don't need to grasp the heart do you?

You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.

It just occurred to me, how would the skin spy learn sorcery? We've seen that it takes years of learning from a young age to master the language required to use the gnosis. The skin spy would have had to have been planted as a child. If this is true, there's no way Moe planted it, it would have happened prior to his leaving Ishual. Unless we all want to assume a skin spy has an intellect approaching Dunyain levels. But they seem rather stupid and savage to me when we see their POVs. They are merely good at mimicry, which doesn't denote intelligence.

Well, the logical answer is that the Consult taught it.  Following what stands to be logical to me is, Moe somehow ensouls what will become the Simas-agent.  He wipes it's memory after the fact and sends it back to the Consult, knowing that they will certainly send it into the Mandate, which will allow them to burrow deeper, meaning that Kellhus' ascent will be made easier (the Mandate being discredited is to his benefit in acquiring the Gnosis/not being recognized as the Harbinger sooner/less Mandate agents around).

The Consult get their gift, the Simas agent is taught enough Gnosis by the Consult to mark it's soul, then it replaces Simas at some point.  Moe wouldn't know which one of them was, but Maith is quick enough to pick out the right one at the moment anyway.  I doubt the Simas-agent would need to work too much sorcery anyway.

Whoa, whoa whoa, hold your horses. The Consult did not teach Simas the Gnosis. The only person to learn the Gnosis without grasping the heart is Kellhus. You have to grasp Seswatha's heart to learn the Gnosis.

I do believe the Consult could have taught Simas the gnosis. The question is whether the Mangaecca style of the gnosis is different than the Sohonc's (Mandate's) style. If so, anyone who witnessed Simas using the "weird" gnosis would know something was up.

The more I think of it, the more I am of the opinion that the Consult would have had to plant a "child" skin spy with the Mandate. Just teaching an adult skin spy the gnosis (which from what we know should be impossible anyway) would not leave it marked enough to pass as someone using powerful sorcery for his entire life.

[locke]

Atrocity tale: childhood as an ensouled skin spy. Bonus points for tons of Orson Scott card references.

[themerchant]

You don't need to grasp the heart do you?

You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.

Mandati Sorcery will presumably be Seswatha Sorcery, which will be Sohonc Sorcery. Which was taught to folk before Seswatha was alive. Is there a delineation by school for the GNosis, I thought it was just the Gnosis.

Someone taught it the Gnosis anyway.

[MSJ]

Blackstone, the same thing crossed my mind about a child sorceror. Simas is indeed a enigma.

[H]

You don't need to grasp the heart do you?

You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.

Mandati Sorcery will presumably be Seswatha Sorcery, which will be Sohonc Sorcery. Which was taught to folk before Seswatha was alive. Is there a delineation by school for the GNosis, I thought it was just the Gnosis.

Someone taught it the Gnosis anyway.

The way the glossary explains it, Mandate Gnosis is somehow seemingly different (somehow) from Sohonc, but no doubt probably based off the same principles.  The Mangaecca was allegedly one of the other 4 "Original Schools" with the Sohonc, but we don't know what the other two would be.  Then, in a different entry we are told that "some dozen or so Gnostic Schools were in existence" at the dawn of the Apocalypse.  Apparently there are a ton of Gnostic "flavors" it's just that we only know of three, right now: what the Quya use, what the Mandate use, and what the Mangaecca use.  Aurang and/or Shae may well know others though, they've had plenty of time to think about it...

The more I think about it though, the less the Simas-agent seems like an "accident" and yet, I have said before, that I feel the agent must have been in place for years and years, meaning Moe's involvement seems very unlikely.  I think there is a greater mystery afoot...

[Blackstone]

...and back to Meppa.

There is an assumption by a lot of people that Moe is some sort of super user whose influence is still driving events in Earwa. I think this is unlikely.

Moe's actual power: We have two perspectives on Moe's power. 1) He is weak as a Chisaurim (from Kellhus). 2) He is the ultimate Chisaurim (From Xerius's meeting with Mallahet and this is assuming Moe=Mallahet, which seems most probable). To me, it seems most likely that if anyone were fooled, then it would be the world-born men of the Nansur and NOT an actual Dunyain. I suspect it's possible that Moe did wield considerable power, however, I think that power was political and not arcane in nature. Case in point: The Scarlet Spires are often referred to as the most powerful school in the Three Seas, yet we know that they are anagogic sorcerers and their arcane power is nothing in comparison to that of the Mandate. Therefore, this power is either political in nature or a reference to their number of sorcerers of rank. It logically leads that the Nansurium's fear of Mallahet/Moe is fear of his political power which is in turn gained from his ability to influence as a Dunyain. His very words may turn Xerius's heart. Beyond that, isn't it Skaeos that says Mallahet is dangerous? Skaeos who we all know is a skin spy. If it is Skaoes that says this, then it leads that his "kind" would be terrified of Moe anyhow. There can be little doubt that the Consult knows anyone that tries to follow him disappears.

The actual power of the Psukhe: We are told time and again in the series that the Psukhe is the least powerful of the sorceries. I know that such a thing as an unreliable narrator exists, but it is generally considered a cheap tactic in literature, and strikes me as something a writer of Bakker's caliber would try to avoid. I chalk up contradictions in the glossary to mistakes by Bakker or things that he just wanted to change rather than the result of unreliable information from narrators/Threes Seas historians. At the very least, the Psukhe is described as being the least refined or the sorceries, a wooden cudgel to the gnosis's steel sword. And, as I said above, Moe was weak in the water. For argument's sake, if he were strong in the water, I still don't believe the Psukhe is sophisticated enough to perform a soul transfer within the magic-nullifying circle of a chorea.

All that being said, Moe's power was too limited for him to still be directing events 20 years after his death. He chose the wrong path as a captive of the Scylvendi, and he wasn't able to deviate from that path. By the time he made it to the Utemot, he likely had no idea magic existed or that it was something he had to account for. He scarred his arms so that he could travel across Scylvendi lands. Realizing that this would make him unwelcome in the Nansur, he picked the only logical path and went south to the Fanim. There, he discovered magic. He had no choice as a Dunyain but to dominate his circumstances and learn magic. At this point he had no way of knowing that the Psukhe was the least powerful magic as he'd likely met no one to tell him otherwise. He blinds himself, believing it would make him more powerful in the Psukhe, and probably discounted the notion that it took passion to carry the most water (just as Bakker made us think that gods may or may not be real until we learn for sure they are in TJE). Blinding himself takes away some of his Dunyain ability (If it was an advantage, all Dunyain would be blind), so he is left with weak magic and weakened Dunyain powers. He is still able to orchestrate the events leading to the Holy War, but a lot of that is done through proxy (Maithanet).

I'm saying all this to point out that I don't think it is possible that Meppa=Moe (or is a vessel for Moe's soul) and while I think it is probable that Meppa is one of Moe's former disciples, for the current story I think it is unimportant. I don't think Moe is still directing events, either from beyond the grave or through the sheer intricacy of the plans he laid 20 years previous. Meppa is in the story as a foil for Psatma. I don't think his previous involvement with Moe has any bearing on what is happening in the AE. So the real question is not "Who is Meppa," but rather, "Can Meppa stop Yatwer?" He is, after all, the only one left to defend his faith. Fanayal seems more interested in plowing fields and building an empire.

My 3 cents.

[MSJ]

Yes everything in that post is true. Its basically a summary  of Moe's arc throughout PoN. Answer me this. Why does Meppa have no memory? And, he's not lying we get this through his dialogue. Fayanal says that he is a gift of the Solitary God and he was found wondering in the desert. He has a ocean of water, Water=passion something Cnaüir is full of. Another clue I get that Meppa is a result of what happened in Kyudea, is Cnaüir saying over and over in TTT, "what am I forgetting". Foreshadowing. If Meppa is this so called disciple of Moe, why is his memory lost and why?

I am not of a mind that Moe is directing events in TAE, rather there as support for what his son is doing. If you recall Moe basically quizzed Kellhus throughout their meeting. Then let him self be stabbed, defended off 3 skin-spies, and waited on Cnaüir to come with his chorae. What does he say to Cnaüir? I need your strength  Nayu, I need you to heal me. We see in TJE that chorae can be used for more than killing sorcery. We have several mentions of souls being transferred. Hey, I am not saying it's 100% likely that Meppa is the result of Kyudea, but there is enough evidence in the book to make it a possibility.

There is discussion at this very moment about why Kellhus is leaving the empire to ruin. No other choice? Most likely. You think Moe might have seen this also? What if Kellhus was wrong about Moe joining the Consult? He's been wrong before, Locke has a great post about it somewhere around here. Maybe Moe knew that without his help, if Kellhus did indeed defeat the Consult, there wouldn't be anything left for anyone to come back to. I could be right, I could be wrong. But, there is plenty of room for it to be something other than deus ex machina, if I'm right.

[Blackstone]

Yes everything in that post is true. Its basically a summary  of Moe's arc throughout PoN. Answer me this. Why does Meppa have no memory? And, he's not lying we get this through his dialogue. Fayanal says that he is a gift of the Solitary God and he was found wondering in the desert. He has a ocean of water, Water=passion something Cnaüir is full of. Another clue I get that Meppa is a result of what happened in Kyudea, is Cnaüir saying over and over in TTT, "what am I forgetting". Foreshadowing. If Meppa is this so called disciple of Moe, why is his memory lost and why?

I am not of a mind that Moe is directing events in TAE, rather there as support for what his son is doing. If you recall Moe basically quizzed Kellhus throughout their meeting. Then let him self be stabbed, defended off 3 skin-spies, and waited on Cnaüir to come with his chorae. What does he say to Cnaüir? I need your strength  Nayu, I need you to heal me. We see in TJE that chorae can be used for more than killing sorcery. We have several mentions of souls being transferred. Hey, I am not saying it's 100% likely that Meppa is the result of Kyudea, but there is enough evidence in the book to make it a possibility.

There is discussion at this very moment about why Kellhus is leaving the empire to ruin. No other choice? Most likely. You think Moe might have seen this also? What if Kellhus was wrong about Moe joining the Consult? He's been wrong before, Locke has a great post about it somewhere around here. Maybe Moe knew that without his help, if Kellhus did indeed defeat the Consult, there wouldn't be anything left for anyone to come back to. I could be right, I could be wrong. But, there is plenty of room for it to be something other than deus ex machina, if I'm right.

Why doesn't Meppa have a memory? I'm not sure what the answer is to that. I don't think my theory answers every question. I'm just answering things that can definitely be defended with text. But the biggest stretch for an answer (IMO) is that Moe merged his soul with Cnauir and inhabited another body with their soul sandwich. Maybe it's just in there for some intrigue. We may never find out. Or we may find it's something we never considered. Cnauir saying "what am I forgetting" is not foreshadowing for the Moe/Cnauir-soul-meld-quantum-leap. It's just Cnauir being batshit crazy...like we've seen all along.

I think it's a HUGE assumption that Moe "let" himself get stabbed. He was facing a younger Dunyain who still had eyesight. Moe was at a huge physical disadvantage. The whole, "I need your strength" sounds exactly like what someone who had just been stabbed and weakened by a fight would say. I don't recall that he fought off 3 skin spies, but say he did, every action is draining more strength, and after fighting off three, he still has to contend with Cnauir and more skin spies (at least one other), so he uses some Dunyain subterfuge to try and get out of the situation. And Cnauir has direct thoughts AFTER zapping Moe with the chorea. If there were some sort of soul melding and transfer, it would have happened as or before Cnauir rolled the chorea over Moe's face (which everything we are told says would kill Moe). So I don't think the combination of the two embodied by Meppa is possible. If Meppa were just Moe (a soul transfer that doesn't have enough evidence...soul to an inanimate object is too different in my opinion) then perhaps totally losing his memory reprogrammed him enough to be "full of water." But the Moe/Meppa would not have most of the Dunyain advantages. The physical perfection and prowess would be missing. I think you could make the argument that the intellect would be missing because of the Meppa body's human brain.

Can Chorae do things other than negate sorcery? Yes. Mimara does some weird Chorae inversion thing. But she is one of the few, not an actual sorcerer or witch. It's a completely different thing. For Moe to complete a soul melding and transfer, he'd have to use sorcery (and like I said, I don't think the psukhe is sophisticated enough for that) while being a foot away from something that negates sorcery. This is the exact opposite of everything Bakker has told us.

As far as Kellhus leaving the empire to crumble, I think that was the only choice. It's go big or go home when the world is in the balance and he couldn't leave enough resources behind to ensure the empire stayed together.

[themerchant]

You don't need to grasp the heart do you?

You do to learn Mandati Gnostic Sorcery. The Mangaecca, presumably, do not need Seswatha's heart to train another gnostic sorcerer for the consult.

Mandati Sorcery will presumably be Seswatha Sorcery, which will be Sohonc Sorcery. Which was taught to folk before Seswatha was alive. Is there a delineation by school for the GNosis, I thought it was just the Gnosis.

Someone taught it the Gnosis anyway.

The way the glossary explains it, Mandate Gnosis is somehow seemingly different (somehow) from Sohonc, but no doubt probably based off the same principles.  The Mangaecca was allegedly one of the other 4 "Original Schools" with the Sohonc, but we don't know what the other two would be.  Then, in a different entry we are told that "some dozen or so Gnostic Schools were in existence" at the dawn of the Apocalypse.  Apparently there are a ton of Gnostic "flavors" it's just that we only know of three, right now: what the Quya use, what the Mandate use, and what the Mangaecca use.  Aurang and/or Shae may well know others though, they've had plenty of time to think about it...

The more I think about it though, the less the Simas-agent seems like an "accident" and yet, I have said before, that I feel the agent must have been in place for years and years, meaning Moe's involvement seems very unlikely.  I think there is a greater mystery afoot...

Mihtrûl  is the name of one of the original schools, they made some of the stuff taken from Wutteats hoard.

I like the idea of a greater mystery.

[MSJ]

Moe had eyesight also, his snakes we're there the whole time. Another reason I believe he let him stab him. All I can say is Moe had a plan at Kyudea, everything was conditioned by him. Kellhus kicking of the fibrous skull is a hint that everything isn't as Kellhus thinks it is. That is the very place that Inri ascended. Maybe Moe is not Meppa, I think he is. Even if he isn't, something went down in that scene, of that I am certain.