[Cüréthañ]

In my mind, everything in Earwa has magical properties to some extent.  Faces form out of the ground and talk, sorcerers walk on the echo of the earth, cish use snakes to see, Yatwer uses storks etc etc. 
It only takes the presence of some kind of soul/animus to disrupt the causal flow. 
Sorcerers are just very good at it.

Sranc, otoh, have no connection to the ground.  E.g. the gods see them as lies.  The question with eating them is, to me, a mundane one.  Does eating them infect you with the tekne?

[Madness]

The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.

The skin-spy could be lying. We only know for sure that it wanted Mimara's Chorae and that it thought it could defeat Nil'giccas in a mundane (still would have been epic) fight to the death with nimil vs. iron and Chorae. And that it wanted to accomplish killing Nil'giccas for the purposes of protecting a pregnant Mimara; Aurang indicates that this is the final variable that definitively safeguards her life.

That is the illusion I'm talking about.  Example; using the qirri at the bottom of the medial screw.  If you are exhausted and wounded to the point where you are falling unconcious like Akka and you take some stimulant which allows you to run up stairs - you are not going to recover from that by having more. 

The skin eaters are surviving for months on a below subsistence diet and qirri whilst pursued by sranc and expending a lot more energy than is feasible.  By comparison, the stone hags (who are denied the qirri) die.  Except Koll, but he isn't human.  Using drugs to sustain superhuman effort whilst starving results in death fairly quickly.

Magic in Earwa produces energy from where-ever.  It's the simplest explanation.  But you know, maybe they are getting it from endless fat reserves or super effective vitamins hidden in ash 

Lmao... no sarcasm, I truly appreciate the fact that only here could you actually suggest the bold in seriousness against the premise of your position, being the existence of sorcery  .

However, you've got to put it into perspective. They've only been at this for months and they haven't been not eating, just eating a lot less. They did eat semi-regularly and are still dining on anything they can find (up to and including raw meat in the Interlude at the end of WLW). They might have enjoyed years of longer life should they not have partaken in this drug or this journey and they're doing themselves damage by sustaining the Qirri habit this long.

Also, consider if Chanv is a product of the Tekne rather than sorcery; the Tekne is an advanced system of technology to which we've attributed all sorts of advances in chemical and biological engineering. Certainly, I can stretch what is known today to seemingly "magical" progress in these fields, can't I? If not sorcery, then the division between Qirri eating before or after the Fall can provide a big clue as to whether it is the Tekne manipulations of the Nonmen that make a drug of their ashes.

Notation please . I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.

My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's.  Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul.  But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.

Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head.  The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him.  She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.

Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them.  That's why he forces it on them.

I actually like this conception very much, except one contention.

(click to show/hide)

It is reminiscent of melange and the genetic memory inherited through the spice trance, neh?

However, my contention is Mimara's decision to shave her head:

Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens.

For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation.

Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child...

And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow.

She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching to her knees for anguish...

For she sees that she is good - and this she cannot bear.

My bold, original italics. Obviously, we can take stabs at the ambiguity of penitent but it's not until p660 that she shaves her head.

In my mind, everything in Earwa has magical properties to some extent.  Faces form out of the ground and talk, sorcerers walk on the echo of the earth, cish use snakes to see, Yatwer uses storks etc etc. 
It only takes the presence of some kind of soul/animus to disrupt the causal flow. 
Sorcerers are just very good at it.

Sranc, otoh, have no connection to the ground.  E.g. the gods see them as lies.  The question with eating them is, to me, a mundane one.  Does eating them infect you with the tekne?

Minus the Cishaurim and the snakes and sorcerers walking, we actually don't know that Yatwer's powers aren't active on a different frequency, so to say; I think this is the distinction that's long floated round here between thaumaturgy and sorcery.

Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?

[Garet Jax]

Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?

I have been of the mindset that the Dunyain were founded, and possibly sustained, while eating Qirri.  But I haven't been able to make a coherent thesis about it.  Or, for that matter, figure out how that would fit into any timeline, other than it would be after The Fall.

[Ishammael]

Really liking this line of thought, Curethan. Especially because I think it fits into the idea of qirri (and chanv) being the result or sorcerous ashes, rather than anything special to the Nonmen. Perhaps, when a sorceror is "Choraed", it's his physical body that's incinerated, while the salt is the residue of his soul. Burning a Nonman (and, presumably a human), yields the same thing -- the body is gone, but the ashes that remain are infused with the soul residue.

The ability to grasp the onta is genetic afterall.

So, Chanv is the result of "Choared" corpses and Qirri the result of burned ashes? 

[locke]

aren't Kellhus' haloes golden?

Would it indicate his falseness that the judging eye sees silver halos around Mimara?

[Madness]

Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?

I have been of the mindset that the Dunyain were founded, and possibly sustained, while eating Qirri.  But I haven't been able to make a coherent thesis about it.  Or, for that matter, figure out how that would fit into any timeline, other than it would be after The Fall.

Lol - I wish you luck because I wanted to read this .

Really liking this line of thought, Curethan. Especially because I think it fits into the idea of qirri (and chanv) being the result or sorcerous ashes, rather than anything special to the Nonmen. Perhaps, when a sorceror is "Choraed", it's his physical body that's incinerated, while the salt is the residue of his soul. Burning a Nonman (and, presumably a human), yields the same thing -- the body is gone, but the ashes that remain are infused with the soul residue.

The ability to grasp the onta is genetic afterall.

So, Chanv is the result of "Choared" corpses and Qirri the result of burned ashes? 

That is speculation. We just don't know yet about Chanv. Qirri is the result of burned ashes but we're trying to discern whether that is because of they are the ashes of the Quya Few, Nonmen in general, or the result of Tekne being introduced to the Nonmen Bios.

aren't Kellhus' haloes golden?

Would it indicate his falseness that the judging eye sees silver halos around Mimara?

Mayhaps, good sir.

Though, we can't exactly claim the Righteousness of Mimara's perspective as much as I'd like to believe.

[Cüréthañ]

The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.

The skin-spy could be lying. We only know for sure that it wanted Mimara's Chorae and that it thought it could defeat Nil'giccas in a mundane (still would have been epic) fight to the death with nimil vs. iron and Chorae. And that it wanted to accomplish killing Nil'giccas for the purposes of protecting a pregnant Mimara; Aurang indicates that this is the final variable that definitively safeguards her life.

I agree. Not convinced it's poison.  Don't know about the rest.

Lmao... no sarcasm, I truly appreciate the fact that only here could you actually suggest the bold in seriousness against the premise of your position, being the existence of sorcery  .

Don't blame me.    It's Bakker's fault for presenting such a consistent and compelling setting.

However, you've got to put it into perspective. They've only been at this for months and they haven't been not eating, just eating a lot less. They did eat semi-regularly and are still dining on anything they can find (up to and including raw meat in the Interlude at the end of WLW). They might have enjoyed years of longer life should they not have partaken in this drug or this journey and they're doing themselves damage by sustaining the Qirri habit this long.

Also, consider if Chanv is a product of the Tekne rather than sorcery; the Tekne is an advanced system of technology to which we've attributed all sorts of advances in chemical and biological engineering. Certainly, I can stretch what is known today to seemingly "magical" progress in these fields, can't I? If not sorcery, then the division between Qirri eating before or after the Fall can provide a big clue as to whether it is the Tekne manipulations of the Nonmen that make a drug of their ashes.

Sure, man.  The Tekne is just more magic as far as I'm concerned.  Genetic engineering seems a lot more difficult than having some equipment and a bunch of crazy sorcerers and two sex criminals in a room for 1000 years.  Difference is that it isn't concerned with souls.

There is only the questions remaining;
why would the tekne immortality-treament/womb-plague make your ashes into super-amphetamine for humans
(had fun imagining the design phase)
why does cleric force it on Akka & Mim . 

Notation please . I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.

My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's.  Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul.  But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.

Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head.  The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him.  She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.

Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them.  That's why he forces it on them.

I actually like this conception very much, except one contention.

(click to show/hide)

It is reminiscent of melange and the genetic memory inherited through the spice trance, neh?

However, my contention is Mimara's decision to shave her head:

Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens.

For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation.

Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child...

And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow.

She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching to her knees for anguish...

For she sees that she is good - and this she cannot bear.

My bold, original italics. Obviously, we can take stabs at the ambiguity of penitent but it's not until p660 that she shaves her head.

Not sure what you're getting at.  In the later scene she shaves her head and eyebrows in front of Cleric.

Her hair falls in a tangle of ribbons across her lap.
...
She's not quite certain what she intends to do, let alone what she hopes to accomplish.
...
And miraculously she sees it.  Her purpose and intent.

Then she reminds him of his dead wife' which results in him remembering without killing her (although he comes very close).  That's when she gets his old name.  (After that he remembers Mimara's name.  I think she was safe from Cleric killing her after that.)

In my mind, everything in Earwa has magical properties to some extent.  Faces form out of the ground and talk, sorcerers walk on the echo of the earth, cish use snakes to see, Yatwer uses storks etc etc. 
It only takes the presence of some kind of soul/animus to disrupt the causal flow. 
Sorcerers are just very good at it.

Sranc, otoh, have no connection to the ground.  E.g. the gods see them as lies.  The question with eating them is, to me, a mundane one.  Does eating them infect you with the tekne?

Minus the Cishaurim and the snakes and sorcerers walking, we actually don't know that Yatwer's powers aren't active on a different frequency, so to say; I think this is the distinction that's long floated round here between thaumaturgy and sorcery.

Totally.  Different metaphysical quanta and relationships.  I think it's related to the earthly remains of souls - the point where they go outside.  So the Cish or Yatwer part of the spectrum.

Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?

Haha.  You want concise answers - sorry!
Maybe.  No evidence either way. It doesn't matter though, because I think the effects would be the same.

[Wic]

why would the tekne immortality-treament/womb-plague make your ashes into super-amphetamine for humans

Carbon nanofiber proteins that enhance cellular processes and don't break when set aflame?

(Why yes, I HAVE been thinking about this.)

[Cüréthañ]

Hehe, so when does the womb-plague kick in for poor Mimara?  Given Akka's age he should be ripe for going erratic too. 
Well, that or becoming young of limb and fair of face.

I've conceded the possibility its the tekne, but soul residue seems more likely to me.

Besides - it reminds me of the reasoning behind Swazond, and I like the idea of Canninbal Kelmomas eating people to get superpowers.

[Cüréthañ]

Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?

I have been of the mindset that the Dunyain were founded, and possibly sustained, while eating Qirri.  But I haven't been able to make a coherent thesis about it.  Or, for that matter, figure out how that would fit into any timeline, other than it would be after The Fall.

I've long held the nerdanel that the Thousand Thousand Halls are a nonman mansion that Ishual was built on top of.  Thinking about it again, I have convinced myself that mansion is Viri and it's possibly full of Nonmen who were powdered into qirri by the Inchie 'weapons of light' - so the Dunyain were getting dosed all along.

[Madness]

Sure, man.  The Tekne is just more magic as far as I'm concerned.  Genetic engineering seems a lot more difficult than having some equipment and a bunch of crazy sorcerers and two sex criminals in a room for 1000 years.  Difference is that it isn't concerned with souls.

Well, the Inchoroi had much more of a knowledge base at the time of the Fall, obviously. Womb-Plague, Grafting for sorcery; these things happened before the Nonmen hunted the Inchoroi across Earwa and through the Ark to extermination.

Plus, you can still be a scientist and a sexual deviant...

There is only the questions remaining;
why would the tekne immortality-treament/womb-plague make your ashes into super-amphetamine for humans
(had fun imagining the design phase)
why does cleric force it on Akka & Mim .

Lol - I'll respond a little more with Wic's stellar answer below but as to your second question: this has always been my biggest question in the Erratic Trauma Curve.

For my money, I've come to think that Cleric was going to leverage the addiction so that when the time came (he dumps the ashes out right before the fight between him and Achamian), it would compel those he wanted to remember to attack him...

But I honestly don't think we know enough about how Erratics function, how Kosoter served as his elju in bringing Cleric trauma (Was the continual death of Scalper fodder enough for Cleric? Who did they generally remind him of, the humans of the Apocalypse?), whether the skin-spy said what it said in truth or in deceit, etc...

Notation please . I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.

My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's.  Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul.  But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.

Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head.  The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him.  She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.

Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them.  That's why he forces it on them.

Not sure what you're getting at.  In the later scene she shaves her head and eyebrows in front of Cleric.

Her hair falls in a tangle of ribbons across her lap.
...
She's not quite certain what she intends to do, let alone what she hopes to accomplish.
...
And miraculously she sees it.  Her purpose and intent.

Then she reminds him of his dead wife' which results in him remembering without killing her (although he comes very close).  That's when she gets his old name.  (After that he remembers Mimara's name.  I think she was safe from Cleric killing her after that.)

You seem to imply in the bold above that the Qirri gives her the explicit or implicit insight to shave her hair...

I was merely suggesting that the Judging Eye, not the Qirri, gave her that insight.

Totally.  Different metaphysical quanta and relationships.  I think it's related to the earthly remains of souls - the point where they go outside.  So the Cish or Yatwer part of the spectrum.

Or they are mutually exclusive in Earwa?

Haha.  You want concise answers - sorry!
Maybe.  No evidence either way. It doesn't matter though, because I think the effects would be the same.

Lol - nope, that in-concise one was all I ever wanted .

why would the tekne immortality-treament/womb-plague make your ashes into super-amphetamine for humans

Carbon nanofiber proteins that enhance cellular processes and don't break when set aflame?

(Why yes, I HAVE been thinking about this.)

+1 Wic. Thanks. I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this shit is in the realm of possibilities.

Hehe, so when does the womb-plague kick in for poor Mimara?  Given Akka's age he should be ripe for going erratic too. 
Well, that or becoming young of limb and fair of face.

Hmm... there's no reason to assume that the dosages of Qirri they are taking (should something like Wic's guess be right) are enough to pass the threshold to necessary for "Immortality/v. Nonmen" or even can interact with humans in the functionally specific fashion designed for the Nonmen.

I've conceded the possibility its the tekne, but soul residue seems more likely to me.

Yay!

Besides - it reminds me of the reasoning behind Swazond, and I like the idea of Canninbal Kelmomas eating people to get superpowers.

Oh, there's no reason to assume this isn't still the case .

I've long held the nerdanel that the Thousand Thousand Halls are a nonman mansion that Ishual was built on top of.  Thinking about it again, I have convinced myself that mansion is Viri and it's possibly full of Nonmen who were powdered into qirri by the Inchie 'weapons of light' - so the Dunyain were getting dosed all along.

Yeah, I'm very curious as to the Thousand Thousand Halls. I don't think it's a stretch at all to suggest that it's a derelict Mansion; light is forbidden, the mapping of space, based on acoustics and wind-flow, in Kyudea reminds Kellhus of the TTH, the names, etc.

I've long thought that Ishterebinth and Ishual are linked under the mountain.

Hell - Nerdanel Inspiration: Achamian and Mimara find a mix of Dunyain survivors and Nonman Intact fighting a losing civil war against the Consult-Nonmen for Ishterebinth from the Thousand Thousand Halls. The Nonmen realize their King (Achamian's nimil armour) is dead giving them the conviction to take the Mansion...

Mind blown. My brain is a sopping mess on the wall.

[Cüréthañ]

You don't think Ishual is far enough away to be Viri?  Perhaps Dagliash would be a more reasonable area for it - there are mountains there at least. 
Surely it can't be directly under Golgoteroth?

[Madness]

The False Sun puts Viri on "the North Shore of the Neleöst Sea." Dagliash seems a possibility?

[Cüréthañ]

Ah ty, ty.  Well, surely not Ishual then.

[Callan S.]

Just noticed the halo was about her head, not her hands.