[mrganondorf]

Maybe the Mandate didn't lie. Maybe the dreams they received were wrong on this instance.

Is Seswatha censoring dreams?

I tend to think that something we think we know is terribly wrong. So much of what we know from the dreams and the Isphyrus comes from one source Seswatha. If some of that wasn't edited I would be shocked. With Akka's new dreams I fully expect some of the sagas to be vindicated.

"he who controls the past, controls the future." 

definitely!  maybe Seswatha is trying to cover some 1 or more monstrous sins--did Seswatha get NC killed on the way in or out of the Ark?  Maybe Seswatha was helping the Consult in the early stages of No-God development untile Seswatha was overwhelmed with the realization of how awful salvation really would be

as penance, Seswatha sets up the Dunyain, fuses his soul with the remaining Sohonc, and lives in the depths of the 1000 1000 halls directing the Pragmas

[H]

Well, with what we know of Seswatha, I think it is pretty probable that there is a great deal hiding just beyond the dreams.  We already know he was sleeping with the the Queen, Sharal, which leads to the idea that Nau being his son is probable.

Then there is what we don't know, which is, how did he escape the Ark?  How did he escape the The Wall of the Dead?  Why build Attrempus if it wasn't going to be important?

I think when they say, "no one escapes Golgotterath" they are being absolutely truthful.  No one does ever escape, just some are allowed to leave.

[Wilshire]

I think when they say, "no one escapes Golgotterath" they are being absolutely truthful.  No one does ever escape, just some are allowed to leave.

I just thought that was a folksy way of saying that people have PTSD and lose their minds.

[H]

I think when they say, "no one escapes Golgotterath" they are being absolutely truthful.  No one does ever escape, just some are allowed to leave.

I just thought that was a folksy way of saying that people have PTSD and lose their minds.

Well, it still certainly is a good question, how did Seswatha actually get away with the Heron Spear?  Part of me wants to believe they just let him take it, but any reason why they would do that completely eludes me.  I guess he really did escape.

That would be twice he got away from the Consult.  Once from the Ark and the second from Mekeritrig on the Wall of the Dead...

[Wilshire]

Yeah, seems somehow unlikely. Some foul play is afoot. Seswatha actually part of the Consult? Ok, maybe thats a bit of a leap, but still there certainly seems like there is something...

[H]

Considering the circumstances we see of Seswatha hanging on the Wall, he had to have somehow sweet-talked Mek into letting him go.  What leverage would he have had though?

It also seems to me that he was sleeping with Celomomas' wife as a way of manipulating him too though.  Perhaps that is reading too far into it, but are we to believe Ses actually loved her?

My feeling though is that somehow Seswatha is "playing all the sides against the middle."  What I don't know is, what is the middle in this case?  Mutual annihilation?  What is all this misdirection playing out toward?

Lets pretend that Ses did send the Dunyain to Ishual, the two things we know about Ishual that are special is it's secret location and it's status as Cel's "seed bank."  I don't think either of those are incidental in them being sent there.   It would seem to be that Ses is setting up to try to make the Celmomian Prophecy true.  He sets up a group to make sure the Anisurimbor line is continued.  He sets up a group to constantly carry the word of the prophecy forward (the Mandate).  He knows the Consult will always be there.

Why do this?  I think Seswatha wants the Second Apocalypse to happen.  I think the misdirection is that everyone is trying so hard to prevent an outcome, that they are unwittingly actually causing it to happen.  If the Second Apocalypse is the Semantic Apocalypse, Earwa is set to lose all that "makes it special."  I think this is Seswatha's end-game, no one will win, the game itself will be destroyed.

Not sure if any of that is lucid enough to make real sense...

[mrganondorf]

Considering the circumstances we see of Seswatha hanging on the Wall, he had to have somehow sweet-talked Mek into letting him go.  What leverage would he have had though?

It also seems to me that he was sleeping with Celomomas' wife as a way of manipulating him too though.  Perhaps that is reading too far into it, but are we to believe Ses actually loved her?

My feeling though is that somehow Seswatha is "playing all the sides against the middle."  What I don't know is, what is the middle in this case?  Mutual annihilation?  What is all this misdirection playing out toward?

Lets pretend that Ses did send the Dunyain to Ishual, the two things we know about Ishual that are special is it's secret location and it's status as Cel's "seed bank."  I don't think either of those are incidental in them being sent there.   It would seem to be that Ses is setting up to try to make the Celmomian Prophecy true.  He sets up a group to make sure the Anisurimbor line is continued.  He sets up a group to constantly carry the word of the prophecy forward (the Mandate).  He knows the Consult will always be there.

Why do this?  I think Seswatha wants the Second Apocalypse to happen.  I think the misdirection is that everyone is trying so hard to prevent an outcome, that they are unwittingly actually causing it to happen.  If the Second Apocalypse is the Semantic Apocalypse, Earwa is set to lose all that "makes it special."  I think this is Seswatha's end-game, no one will win, the game itself will be destroyed.

Not sure if any of that is lucid enough to make real sense...

wow, awesome post H!!!

unrelated--the way the story is going, the reader is inclined to think that the Mandate have the false and or incomplete story while Akka is getting the real thing.  R Sly Bakker could be setting us up for a twist: Akka is just experiencing more lies.  RSB harps on ignorance so much i wonder if he's going to be bringing Akka to a point where Akka believes that Akka is super justified in believing X and then X is completely disproved in the end

like Akka becomes utterly convinced that Kellhus is trying to become the Uber-Mog and brings the Heron Spear to kill him, kills him, as Kellhus dies it becomes apparent that Kellhus really did want to save the world and Akka just saved the Consult or some such

also "Ieva" to make post relevant

[Wilshire]

Great post H. I've read it se real times now and, at first, I really liked the idea but now I'm not so sure.

Seswatha was seemingly instrumental in stopping the first apocalypse, so why force the second?

One possible explication for that would be for him to be working with Shae, as an ally, rather than a mortal enemy, then, the mandate and the skin spy hate towards Chiara is all misdirection. They needed the 2nd apoc, but they needed everyone to belive in the struggle between the two sides, between good and evil, to truly bring it about.

Seems like a. It of a stretch, but there are enough hard truths in there for me to accept it.

[H]

Great post H. I've read it se real times now and, at first, I really liked the idea but now I'm not so sure.

Seswatha was seemingly instrumental in stopping the first apocalypse, so why force the second?

One possible explication for that would be for him to be working with Shae, as an ally, rather than a mortal enemy, then, the mandate and the skin spy hate towards Chiara is all misdirection. They needed the 2nd apoc, but they needed everyone to belive in the struggle between the two sides, between good and evil, to truly bring it about.

Seems like a. It of a stretch, but there are enough hard truths in there for me to accept it.

Well, I'm not really throwing this down at as Factual.  Just more of a feeling I had.

The idea of why he would prevent the first and actively presue a second, is that the first was absolutely on the Consult's terms.  They dictated how it would happen and so were poised to reap the rewards (i.e. avoid damnation).  The way Seswatha (if he has in fact actually done this) is more to engineer a total loss, i.e. a total sundering of the system that allows even the possibility of a Consult victory.

This prevents there being a Thrid, Fourth, Fifth, etc. because otherwise, do you think the Consult would just give up, simply because it didn't work the second time?  What better way to make sure your opponent can't win the game, other than breaking the board?  It's scorched earth to another level entirely.  You win the game by not by out playing your opponent, when you opponent is immortal and insanely driven, but by making sure your opponent doesn't get to play.  The plan isn't victory, it's denying your opponent victory.

Keep in mind, this Second Apocalypse, who has brought it about?  Because it was not A&A, nor Shae as far as we can tell.