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News/Announcements / Re: New Bakker Website
« on: November 08, 2018, 03:18:39 pm »
Needs some merch! I would totally buy a Chorae.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Can one's fate in the Outside be changed by that the gods can't see?
« on: July 30, 2018, 05:54:26 pm »I just realized, rereading this now that I think I misunderstood the intent of the tread.
I mean, my earlier post asked about if sins unseen still damn, which I actually think I am wrong on, because I twisted the question in my head. The Nonmen dug deep for reasons, one of which was to avoid the sight of the gods. So, indeed, it seems logical that sins committed out of sight are unknown. But that wasn't the question.
I think the question was, does being out of sight keep you from being damned? And to this, I think the answer is actually still no. It's why it is important that the No-God stops the cycle of souls, but doesn't actually "blind" the gods. Sin marks you. Once marked, you stay that way, until absolved somehow or you die. What the No-God does isn't absolution though, it's annihilation.
This sort of stuff is frustrating because it highlights how little we really know about the mechanics of sin and damnation. How does sin "attach" to your soul? Can you sin without being marked or stained if you do it where the gods (or The God) can't see? Do such places exist? Does Mimara's Judging Eye actually see with the eye of The God? What's the difference between what Mimara sees with the Judging Eye and what the gods (lowercase) see?
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Influences on TSA
« on: June 01, 2018, 05:35:02 pm »
I dunno H. All I'm really seeing here is a claim that Kellhus was doomed by his ignorance. The very thing the Dunyain strive against; to be ignorant is to be a slave of the world, to perpetually come after. I don't think anybody is making an argument that if Kellhus had the knowledge that a sacrifice of lil Kel was needed, he couldn't or wouldn't go through with it.
So ironically, assuming your point that a sacrifice was necessary is true, Kellhus' problem is that he failed as a Dunyain. The Darkness came before him and he was blind to both the threat it presented and the means by which he could neutralize that threat. His inability to learn all that he needed to know, to perceive all the threats on the chessboard, did him in. Bad Dunyain! No Absolute for you!
So ironically, assuming your point that a sacrifice was necessary is true, Kellhus' problem is that he failed as a Dunyain. The Darkness came before him and he was blind to both the threat it presented and the means by which he could neutralize that threat. His inability to learn all that he needed to know, to perceive all the threats on the chessboard, did him in. Bad Dunyain! No Absolute for you!
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Influences on TSA
« on: May 30, 2018, 06:30:22 pm »
I'm not sure I understand your argument that Kellhus can't sacrifice lil Kel. It seemed to me that Kellhus didn't see a need to sacrifice him, in that he didn't believe doing so was particularly important one way or another. Are you arguing that if Kellhus was convinced that he needed to end lil Kel in order to accomplish his goals, he wouldn't have done it?
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
« on: May 08, 2018, 05:27:34 pm »Quote
The Fanim do not consider the Gods to be Gods, they call them demons in a religious sense, and their views on Ciphrang as actual existing entities are unknown (at least I don't currently remember them being expressed).
Psatma is a good point, yes, and she is much closer to Kellhus than Harweel because of her direct line to the divine. That said, she makes a clear distinction between the Gods and Ciphrang. She is a believer. Kellhus isn't.
Psatma literally states that she worships a demon when pressed by Meppa. She justifies it via an appeal to power, but she doesn't make a clear distinction between gods and demons at all. Only that Yatwer is the strongest demon.
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My point is, when Kellhus talks about the Outside and its agencies, his words cannot be viewed in the context of common beliefs. They should be viewed metaphysically, using cutting edge knowledge about the workings of Earwa. Harweel or even the priests of the Thousand Temples can neither corroborate nor dispute Kellhus, they are not in possession of enough information to do so. Someone like Psatma is a better counterpoint, but her arguments are inherently tainted by her beliefs, which are irrational by definition. The Nonmen would also serve as a source of relevant information here.
I'm not sure I understand your point here. Yes, it's reasonable to assume Kellhus knows more about the metaphysics of Earwa than anybody else, but what does that have to do with how and what the people of Earwa think about Ciphrang? Perhaps they're wrong in believing Ciphrang to be hungers, although I don't think they are based on all available evidence, but they do think that.
In the WLW, we get the following from Malowebi's internal monologue;
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"If he were a demon, then Zeum should arm for immediate war, now, before he achieved his immediate goals, for demons were simply Hungers from the abyss, insatiable in their pursuit of destruction."
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
« on: May 07, 2018, 08:55:29 pm »Quote
Knowledge and ignorance are really the only things that we are shown makes sin. I think MSJ can help you out with that one.
I think sin makes sin in Earwa. Ignorance of the sin appears to be no excuse, but ignorance seems to lead to "better" behavior and knowledge to worse. That makes sense if using people as tools is a great sin; the less you know and understand, the harder it is to manipulate and use others.
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Sorcery, on the other hand, we have no idea if it makes you damned or not. We know it makes you marked, but we have less information on The Mark than we do on damnation. I suspect the two phenomenon are largely separate - it just so happens that most people use magic to kill people, and schoolmen/quya tend to be knowledgeable people. Both attributes leading to damnation - sorcery is merely the means, not the cause.
Yeah, it's not clear cut. Mimara sees Akka as a blasted, charred figure, irrevocably damned. But is that because of his Mark, or because Akka has killed many people and probably used and manipulated plenty of others in his career as a spy? As you say, we actually know little about Damnation. It's not clear to me what Damnation even means in the context of what Mimara sees. We're told salvation by The Hundred is arbitrary and capricious; you merely have to be liked. Could Gilgaol "save" a mighty warrior that killed hundreds of men and showed as Damned in Mimara's Judging Eye? So perhaps Mimara's Eye does accurately see Damnation but everybody gets a last saving throw when they die to see if a god likes them enough to "save" them?
My gut tells me that sorcery and the Mark DO lead to Damnation because they offend the God, marring his creation, singing in his Voice. But then, what role does the God have in Damnation? He sleeps. He doesn't eat in the Outside. Are the Ciphrang (including The Hundred) and their hunger his will?
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
« on: May 07, 2018, 07:19:14 pm »Ajokli's grand plot that drove the entire series was to manifest in the Inward so he could FEAST.That is precisely why I made a distinction here. People talk about Ciphrang feasting on souls. They most certainly do not talk about the Gods that way, and Ajokli is a God. Now, Kellhus does refer to the Gods in all kinds of manners that mark them as no more than Ciphrang on a bigger scale, but Kellhus is the only one in-universe who does that.
Psatma Nannaferi flat out told somebody (Meppa?) that Yatwer would eat him. The gods also feast.
The Cishaurim, and by extension all Fanim, believe that The Hundred are nothing but upjumped Ciphrang.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
« on: May 07, 2018, 03:02:02 pm »Harweel claims that Kellhus is a Hunger in TJE. Between that and Kellhus' words in TUC, I'm comfortable using the word to describe ciphrang.While I agree it's what Harweel meant, I don't think he and Kellhus are talking about the same thing at all. Kellhus is just clearly in possession of much more information pertaining to the Outside. His perspective is not at all equal to Harweel's, it's the difference between the informed and the uninformed here.
Kellhus certainly knows more, but they're both talking about the same thing; Ciphrang are hunger. They're defined by it, such that people who don't have any special knowledge or insight into the Outside use the word to refer to them. Think about everything we know about Ciphrang. Every time we see them on screen, they're lusting for souls, driven to satisfy themselves. Ajokli's grand plot that drove the entire series was to manifest in the Inward so he could FEAST.
Remember that in the Outside, everything that makes people human is meat to them. Meat to sate their hunger.
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My thought is that it has something to do with her personally. Thinking back to the idea that knowledge is what makes sin, Serwa is painfully aware of her actions and their repercussions. She's aware of the falseness of her father, that he isn't a god but a man playing god's game. Shes aware that all the men in the ordeal is damned and does nothing to stop or, etc. etc. Her Ciphranginess comes from her quasi-dunyain ability to know her actions
I'm not sure that knowledge or ignorance of sin matters in Earwa. Didn't Bakker tell us there was a right and a wrong way to believe/act, and if you happened to be born into the wrong religion, sucks to be you. Whole nations would be damned, etc. I'm more inclined to think it goes towards her actions. Kellhus tells us that using others as tools is especially damning, and Serwa is certainly guilty of that in a big way, in addition to her mastery of sorcery.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Serwa seen with the Judging Eye
« on: May 04, 2018, 09:03:56 pm »
Harweel claims that Kellhus is a Hunger in TJE. Between that and Kellhus' words in TUC, I'm comfortable using the word to describe ciphrang.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Identity of the Mutilated
« on: April 25, 2018, 05:13:52 pm »Self inflicted wounds doesn't sound like something a Dunyain would do.
I dunno. Moenghus both scarred his arms like a Scylvendi AND put out his own eyes. I think the question to always ask when looking at Dunyain behavior is; does this particular end justify that particular mean? If a Dunyain is convinced the answer is yes, I don't think you can put ANY behavior past him.
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General Q&A / Re: Is There Grace or Forgiveness in TSA / Earwa?
« on: April 16, 2018, 03:21:26 pm »
According to Bakker, the gods are capricious and the criteria for being "saved" is essentially that a god likes you.
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The Crabikiad / Re: Crabby Fails
« on: April 05, 2018, 06:07:04 pm »
I think TLEILAXU has it right in that Crabicus is defective because he cannot manage his emotions within "acceptable" Dunyain parameters. I agree with Wilshire that the Dunyain apparently have the capacity to make such determinations while children are still essentially infants, and those determinations are reasonably accurate.
I remember posting a while ago that the Anasurimbor line in general seems to be undergoing a sort of degeneration from Dunyanic ideals as we progress through the story. Moenghus Sr. was a Dunyain's Dunyain, a true son of Ishual in pretty much every way. When his children failed to meet spec, he drowned them. Welp.
Kellhus on the other hand harbored feelings for Esmenet, and regardless of how he personally felt about his children, he at the very least coddled them out of regard for her. Inrilatus was merely imprisoned instead of summarily killed. Kelmomas was spared multiple times for Esme's sake.
Koringhus, although a prodigy among the Dunyain, went so far as to risk his life repeatedly to save his infant son. His defective son. There's no evidence of any other Dunyain doing anything like that, and Koringhus himself regards the decision as a sort of inexplicable madness.
And Crabicus is, by Dunyain standards, defective. He cannot control his emotions. He loves.
I remember posting a while ago that the Anasurimbor line in general seems to be undergoing a sort of degeneration from Dunyanic ideals as we progress through the story. Moenghus Sr. was a Dunyain's Dunyain, a true son of Ishual in pretty much every way. When his children failed to meet spec, he drowned them. Welp.
Kellhus on the other hand harbored feelings for Esmenet, and regardless of how he personally felt about his children, he at the very least coddled them out of regard for her. Inrilatus was merely imprisoned instead of summarily killed. Kelmomas was spared multiple times for Esme's sake.
Koringhus, although a prodigy among the Dunyain, went so far as to risk his life repeatedly to save his infant son. His defective son. There's no evidence of any other Dunyain doing anything like that, and Koringhus himself regards the decision as a sort of inexplicable madness.
And Crabicus is, by Dunyain standards, defective. He cannot control his emotions. He loves.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] - Cnaïur/Ajokli theory
« on: April 05, 2018, 05:39:27 pm »I mean, it is plausible, but while some of Ajokli's traits certainly line up, others really do not. So, where Ajokli is the Prince of Hate, he is also a trickster, something that doesn't really describe Cnaiur. I think, more likely, is that Ajokli takes the mantle of Cnaiur because there is overlap and so, in that sense, there is an "opening" for which Ajokli can come through.
I agree. I would be a little disappointed if Ajokli was Cnaiur in truth. As bad as he was, he had some principles and focused his hate mostly on the Dunyain. To become the greatest evil known to man would be surprising to me. Ajokli also tries to ally with the four mutilated Dunyain which I cannot imagine Cnaiur going along with.. unless it was trickery, which does not fit well with his character... I don't know, perhaps Godhood scrubbed away his personality. That would be kind of a let-down.
Hopefully, he becomes a separate entity in Hell. One which may challenge Ajokli for ruler-ship of Hell
I didn't really see Ajokli's behavior with the Mutilated in the Golden Room as "allying" so much as "dominating". It was basically a case of, "I'm boss ape and this is how it's gonna be. What's that, you got something to say? *HEAD ASPLODES* Any other comments, questions, criticisms? No? Great, let's start harvesting some suffering."
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General Earwa / Re: Modern Day Times With A Dunyain
« on: March 26, 2018, 07:30:11 pm »
Interesting thread. I feel like human potential can come close to the Dunyain in many, perhaps even most, areas, while obviously falling short (arrow catches, Kellhus' superhuman strength, mastering new languages in a week or two). Some people really are immensely charismatic and adept at getting other people to follow them, listen to them, buy from them. Not to Dunyain levels, but sometimes close. Think cult leaders. Some people really do have stupendous reflexes and hand eye coordination. They can't catch arrows, but compared to us muggles they're lightning quick. Think elite professional boxers. You can do this with all the various Dunyain virtues.
Of course, the distinguishing factor is that ALL the Dunyain can do ALL that stuff. Any given human is incredibly lucky to have even one of those talents (to a far lesser degree than any Dunyain would).
Of course, the distinguishing factor is that ALL the Dunyain can do ALL that stuff. Any given human is incredibly lucky to have even one of those talents (to a far lesser degree than any Dunyain would).
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] How did the Inchoroi come think Earwa was the promised land?
« on: March 19, 2018, 08:27:39 pm »I'm increasingly starting to disregard Bakker's proclamations regarding his work. Anyway, if the No-God is unaware and unconscious, then whence its questioning? I mean sure, I could program my computer to periodically "ask" the same questions asked by the No-God, and that wouldn't mean my computer has consciousness or self-awareness, but to claim that's what's going on with the No-God is simply... lame. Perhaps the soul within the No-God is a separate entity from the No-God? I think I like that interpretation best of all.I completely understand your problem with the premise, but it is what it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
Bakker's just using it basically as is.
Yes, I'm familiar with the concept. I just find it to be lame and bad storytelling. Look, we all know why the No-God asks those questions in ALL CAPS. Because it's badass. Because it's cool. Because it's terrifying.
But by claiming the No-God is unaware of its existence, Bakker turns the No-God into just a chatty cathy doll. There's nothing asking the questions because there's nothing there other than a speaker belching pre-programmed lines. This is a good example of how Bakker's need to insert his philosophy into his story makes the story worse.
