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Messages - Cuttlefish

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1
The Crabikiad / Re: Crabby Fails
« on: July 20, 2019, 08:03:39 pm »
What I mean by "it was Ajokli that was defeated", was that at Kellhus's death, it's Ajokli who is affected by Kelmomas, not Kellhus.

And it's arguable that Sorweel could've and would've killed Kellhus without Kelmomas's influence, so Kellhus sparing him in Esmenet's behalf got him further. He could've killed him afterwards, but what precise reason did he have? Outwardly, Kelmomas was never a threat to Kellhus.

And I don't think it's comparable, what happened with Moenghus. Moenghus couldn't have killed Kellhus even if he wanted (and Kellhus speculates that he'd try; he speculates on an alternative scenario where Moenghus, being Dunyain still, is inevitably converted to the Consult, kills Kellhus, takes his place as the prophet, and leads the world to slaughter); Kellhus possessed sight as a physical advantage, and though he hadn't yet reached the full height of his power, he was still the stronger magician with the Gnosis. So, for Moenghus, it wasn't a choice.

Quote from: themerchant on July 20, 2019, 03:51:58 pm
How do we know Kellhus has failed. Perhaps he planned past a defeat.

He says something like "the Consult has to win" to Proyas before he dies, and Bakker himself said "Kellhus is dead, but not done". So, perhaps, the ground the world has to thread without Kellhus is still conditioned by him! Kellhus's conversation with Moenghus implied to me that he sought something "more" for humanity, by mentioning sharing the truth with them, though Moenghus immediately dismisses the possibility. Perhaps, he seeks to break the cycle of monstrous morality that grips Earwa, of gods who feast on the souls of almost *everyone*.

Though, his reaction to being defeated in the end seemed to be of genuine shock, so I don't know how much he expected what went down.

2
The Crabikiad / Re: Crabby Fails
« on: July 17, 2019, 12:05:44 pm »
I think it's wrong to assume that it was Kellhus who was bested by his son; it was Ajokli. Kellhus himself seems fairly aware of his son; he successfully identifies himself while leaving the imperial capital (Momemn, I think? It's been a while) for everything he has done, he successfully identifies that his son truly believed Sorweel to be intent on killing him. He can read Kelmomas like he can read anyone; the trouble is, it is the Gods (whose very existence is anathema to the Dunyain) who are blind to him, and ultimately, it is one of them that gets jumped by Kelmomas, leaving Kellhus exposed to be killed. It is ironic that, after two series of books of realizing that everything the Dunyain were built upon was false, to ultimately be deceived by the "true" powers he has acquired, a situation that he could've survived had he remained a full Dunyain and therefore alert to everything (assuming, of course, that as a full Dunyain, he'd still have ended up in the same situation to begin with as opposed to joining the Consult).

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The Crabikiad / Re: Crabby Fails
« on: July 15, 2019, 05:47:18 pm »
Quote from: SuJuroit on April 05, 2018, 06:07:04 pm
I think TLEILAXU has it right in that Crabicus is defective because he cannot manage his emotions within "acceptable" Dunyain parameters.  I agree with Wilshire that the Dunyain apparently have the capacity to make such determinations while children are still essentially infants, and those determinations are reasonably accurate. 

I remember posting a while ago that the Anasurimbor line in general seems to be undergoing a sort of degeneration from Dunyanic ideals as we progress through the story.  Moenghus Sr. was a Dunyain's Dunyain, a true son of Ishual in pretty much every way.  When his children failed to meet spec, he drowned them.  Welp.

Kellhus on the other hand harbored feelings for Esmenet, and regardless of how he personally felt about his children, he at the very least coddled them out of regard for her.  Inrilatus was merely imprisoned instead of summarily killed.  Kelmomas was spared multiple times for Esme's sake. 

Koringhus, although a prodigy among the Dunyain, went so far as to risk his life repeatedly to save his infant son.  His defective son.  There's no evidence of any other Dunyain doing anything like that, and Koringhus himself regards the decision as a sort of inexplicable madness. 

And Crabicus is, by Dunyain standards, defective.  He cannot control his emotions.  He loves.

I disagree with the notion that Anasurimbor line is increasingly degenerating from the Dunyain ideals, as kind of a genetical evolution. It is Moenghus himself that explains the Dunyain are not free from the causality, that though they've bred most emotions out, some still have stuck with them; I agree that Moenghus remained true to the Dunyain ideals throughout his stay in the outside while Kellhus has completely let them go, but I believe this is a consequence of the different conditions that have affected them; Kellhus, delivered to the Gnosis and reaching the truth (or near approximation) of the metaphysical forces that govern Earwa, understands the folly of the shortest path far more clearly than Moenghus, limited by his conditions, could.

To Koringhus, the realization that he saved the defective child because it is his son (and he loves him) comes much after the fact of saving him, and after a decade or so of constant exertion and creeping insanity - he is broken, not because he is genetically degenerating, but because the conditions the world impose upon him break away his Dunyain spirit; it's worth noting that Kellhus's emotionality begins to manifest itself fairly early on in the series of novels, such as when he spares Cnaiür out of pity, or when he feels a shortness of breath that puzzles him when Esmenet's life is put in danger. It's also mentioned, if I recall correctly, that some of the Dunyain were so overwhelmed when the Consult first besieged Ishual, that they simply stopped functioning - I think these Dunyain belong to the weakest lines of Dunyain, as opposed to Anasurimbor, "the most promising of the twelve germs" as described Koringhus.

In summary, I don't think the Anasurimbor split with the Dunyain ideology is a product of generational differences, but merely the unique conditions they find themselves in. I think if Moenghus, straight out of Ishual, was thrust in the exact same scenario as Kellhus, he'd largely, if not entirely, end up in the same place. Same goes for Koringhus.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« on: August 25, 2018, 06:35:54 pm »
Quote from: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 06:11:33 pm
Yes, Ajokli was "short-circuited" by the proximity to the No-God in the form of Kelmomas. When Ajokli-Cnaiur walked into the Whirlwind, the same thing should have happened the moment he came into the No-God's direct area of influence. If he didn't, then just the body was destroyed (by the Whirlwind, without getting directly influenced by the No-God), and Ajokli can hop between them even when forced out, like he hopped from Kellhus to Cnaiur.

Just why Ajokli stopped inhabiting Kellhus isn't clear to me; it seemed like he was shocked at being approached by something he did not see coming (though whether it was Kellhus who was shocked or Ajokli, that wasn't really clear either).

However, Cnaiür comes far more closer to No-God. This is the book section:

The Whirlwind blotted all Creation before him, blowing bodies outward and sucking bodies up as it advanced. A million blasting needles sheared the scars from his skin, leaving his windward surfaces striped in living fire. And they roiled like burning grease within him, the indignities he had suffered, the grudges and grievances he bore! Such a toll as only murder could redeem!

“SHOW THYSELF SO THAT I MIGHT STRIKE THEE!”

Skin pealed back from tissue, sloughed as parchment. Bleeding was struck into mist.
WHAT DO YOU SEE?

Even as it blinded the wind laid bare, exposing structures, devouring them, displaying the lurid layers beneath. With Hell’s own eyes, Cnaiür urs Skiötha peered up into the void and saw … nothing.
“REVEAL! REVEAL THYSELF!”
Flesh disintegrated. A vicious black climbed over all things, grew numb.

WHAT AM I?


"With hell's own eyes", he looks at No-God, and sees nothing... which is in keeping with the idea that the Gods can't see him. But unless Ajokli is the runt of the litter, the god of stupidity or the intellect of gods work in different ways, he should be able to realize something is up with the No-God.

Assuming he didn't die, of course. Unlike Kellhus's death, there is no indication that he actually left Cnaiür at this point. But that's a rather useless argument, because Bakker's prose was frustratingly vague towards the end of this book.


Quote from: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 06:11:33 pm
At some point I speculated that the host influences Ajokli's personality, so Ajokli-Kellhus is not completely the same as Ajokli-Cnaiur. The nature and goals of the Trickster are preserved, but some quirks of the host's personality also play a part. Like, for example, Kellhus's scheming or Cnaiur's hatred. Other people went even farther, postulating that it was the "birth" of Ajokli the Trikster and at the same time Prince of Hate as he described in the books. It invokes atemporality in exactly the same way you did below.

That's a bit anti-climactic, isn't it, that a God should insert himself into the story in like, two chapters of the book, and be born through it? I'm more inclined to believe that Ajokli is better disposed towards connecting to Kellhus and Cnaiür because his realm is deception and hatred, than being born out of them. Though he could perhaps be an amalgation of the two, I don't find it likely that he gained his definining attributes through a few minutes of contact to two mortals (if they are, at all!)

Quote from: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 06:11:33 pm
It's really hard to speculate about the God of Gods, since Bakker expressed very strange views on the subject through Kellhus (his talks with Proyas). I'm completely unsure whether the concept of causality, for example, is at all relevant when we're talking about the God of Gods.

Well, we can discern a few things. Both Kellhus and Koringhus, possessing probably the two greatest intellects in the series, grasp the nature of the God of Gods through distinct means, and their understanding of it seems to match each other. Both of them, for example, point out that the idea it has human features (as in, emotions), is faulty.


5
The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« on: August 25, 2018, 05:51:45 pm »
Quote from: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 04:59:24 pm
Indeed he did, and Cnaiur's body was destroyed, just as Kellhus's was before. But Ajokli evidently didn't die when Kellhus did, so it stands to reason that destruction of possessed body doesn't destroy him.

Ajokli wasn't inhabiting Kellhus when he died, though. And it wasn't No-God that killed Kellhus, it was a Chorae. He might've still survived the encounter, but he definitely witnessed the No-God.

And another interesting bit is that, when Cnaiür is possessed by Ajokli, he is uttering his usual boasts of vengeance against Kellhus, but when Kellhus was possessed, it seemed like it was Ajokli speaking. Unless, when Cnaiür's the host, it is Ajokli who is swearing vengeance against Kellhus.

Quote from: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 04:59:24 pm
]
There is in the sense that Absolute ([EDIT] it's probably better to call it the God of Gods, just so not to confuse it with the Absolute of the Dunyain) is also atemporal, so seeing the No-God at the end of TUC means the God sees/has seen it always.

That's an interesting thought, and the Godliest God might've chosen not to intervene in the First Apocalypse so as to not change the sequence of events leading it into seeing the No-God, and therefore becoming aware of it.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« on: August 25, 2018, 04:42:41 pm »
Quote from: themerchant on August 25, 2018, 04:08:21 pm
Also remember the Dunyain Ajokli killed was right in the middle of saying how Ajokli is actually hiding from his brothers and sisters as he is being hunted by them.

Plus the gods weren't against Kellhus they were against Ajokli who was possessing Kellhus. As they can't see the No-God just Ajokli trying to get into the "inside".

I don't know, is it explicitly stated that the Gods hunted Kellhus because of Ajokli? That might've been a factor, but I don't suppose they take kindly to a false prophet, either.

Another thing to consider for what Kellhus intends is, what are the end possibilities?

a) The Consult wins, the world is shut through genocide - he is clearly opposed to this, I think that's pretty clearly established, going as back as the Warrior-Prophet.

b) Ajokli turns the world into a living hell. He might actually be up for this; it seemed that way in the last book. Maybe not, though?

c) Status quo. The world persists, the playground of cruel gods who impose arbitrary and restrictive rules upon humanity. The "good" ending, not so good.

We don't fully understand what Kellhus's relationship with Ajokli is, but in trying to prevent the destruction of the world, he wouldn't be inclined to return things to the way they were - at least I suppose not, because it's fairly miserable for mankind and Kellhus included.

There is, IIRC, no indication during the first trilogy that he made contact with Ajokli - he states that it is No-God who speaks to him. And yet, he is assured in the knowledge that he is not damned, as he no longer considers himself a Dunyain and believes the knowledge of their own damnation makes Dunyain a threat to the Thousandfold Thought. I think there is a Kellhus in-between the forces at play, be they Ajokli, the Consult or the Hundred, who may be playing a long con on all of them.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« on: August 25, 2018, 04:33:34 pm »
Quote from: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 03:17:18 pm
Quote from: Cuttlefish on August 25, 2018, 01:09:27 pm
Thinking more on Bakker's statement, I think I get a sense of what was the point throughout. I think the Great Ordeal was designed to fail from the getgo. Kellhus himself says to Proyas that the Consult, at one point, must win - and that what they do here rewrites the Hundred. He then explains himself to the Mutiliated as an Inverse Prophet (which, in my understanding, is supposed to be a prophet sent by mankind to the gods, as opposed to sent to mankind by the gods); he not only delivers one of the Gods, Ajokli, into defeat at the hands of the Unholy Consult (possibly even death), but also makes the Judging Eye itself acknowledge the existence of No-God. Maybe now the Gods have to take notice, realizing the power of the absence that No-God represents.
On the matter of Ajokli, he is most certainly not dead, since he possessed Cnaiur after the events in the Golden Room.

(...)

[EDIT]
Oh, and also getting into the World and being kicked out of the Golden Room by Kelmomas did nothing to help Ajokli see the No-God.

And didn't Cnaiür basically walk into No-God, as I recall?

Quote from: SmilerLoki on August 25, 2018, 03:17:18 pm
The God, who is presumably behind the Eye (and who is somewhat at odds with the Zero-God as outlined in The Survivor's revelation), is not one of the Gods, has a different nature, and therefore there is no reason to think He (It?) was ever blind to the No-God.
[/quote]

There is no reason to think it isn't, though. We don't even quite know the nature of relationship between the Hundred and the Absolute; I think the priests suggest that he is basically a sum of them.

8
The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« on: August 25, 2018, 01:09:27 pm »
Thinking more on Bakker's statement, I think I get a sense of what was the point throughout. I think the Great Ordeal was designed to fail from the getgo. Kellhus himself says to Proyas that the Consult, at one point, must win - and that what they do here rewrites the Hundred. He then explains himself to the Mutiliated as an Inverse Prophet (which, in my understanding, is supposed to be a prophet sent by mankind to the gods, as opposed to sent to mankind by the gods); he not only delivers one of the Gods, Ajokli, into defeat at the hands of the Unholy Consult (possibly even death), but also makes the Judging Eye itself acknowledge the existence of No-God. Maybe now the Gods have to take notice, realizing the power of the absence that No-God represents.

9
The Unholy Consult / [Spoilers] Is the Consult doomed to fail?
« on: August 23, 2018, 01:20:09 pm »
A thought occured to me; Kellhus pretty much states that the hell witnessed through the Inverse Fire is something that's already happened/happening, because hell is outside the time spectrum of the world. He sees himself as something, while the Mutiliated and rest of the Consult (and I think, pretty much anyone who has looked at the Inverse Fire) witness themselves as being damned in hell.

So, my question is - if they're already in hell, then does that mean their eventual goal of shutting off the world is doomed to failure? Perhaps, not entirely, but they themselves will perish before they can escape damnation.

10
The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« on: August 23, 2018, 01:13:12 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire on August 07, 2018, 03:41:44 pm
Re: Mutilated Machinations

Just want to throw out that they might not give a damn about their souls, or even believe in them, but simply belive the shortest path to being a self moving soul is to remove the original movers from the game.

About this, I found an interesting passage from the last book of the first trilogy, where Kellhus predicts what his father would do if he came to realize he was damned:

Kellhus looked to the haloes about his hands. “The crimes you’ve committed, Father … the sins … When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dûnyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy … And you will war as they war.”

Kellhus fell back into himself, opened his deeper soul to the details of his father’s nearly naked form, assessing, appraising. The strength of limbs. The speed of reflexes.

 Must move quickly.

“To shut the World against the Outside,” the pale lips said. “To seal it through the extermination of mankind …”

“As Ishuäl is shut against the Wilderness,” Kellhus replied.

 For the Dûnyain, it was axiomatic: what was compliant had to be isolated from what was unruly and intractable. Kellhus had seen it many times, wandering the labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought: The Warrior-Prophet’s assassination. The rise of Anasûrimbor Moënghus to take his place. The apocalyptic conspiracies. The counterfeit war against Golgotterath. The accumulation of premeditated disasters. The sacrifice of whole nations to the gluttony of the Sranc. The Three Seas crashing into char and ruin.

The Gods baying like wolves at a silent gate.

Perhaps his father had yet to apprehend this. Perhaps he simply couldn’t see past the arrival of his son. Or perhaps all this—the accusations of madness, the concern over his unanticipated turn—was simply a ruse. Either way, it was irrelevant.

11
The Unholy Consult / Re: Two Questions
« on: August 07, 2018, 06:47:03 pm »
Quote from: SmilerLoki on August 06, 2018, 09:22:15 pm
Additionally, the fact that the Shortest Path might be false isn't necessarily relevant. It was followed like it was true, and it created a way of thinking that's embodied in the Dunyain. In other words, the definition of Absolute - which isn't given in the series - might be irrelevant (let's say, using your theory, that God-Kellhus is the Absolute), only the path that leads to it is important.

That's precisely what I suspect, though. The teachings of the Shortest Path created individuals that are ideally suited to taking over the world, but it was built on a lot of falsehoods; falsehoods that the first Dunyain themselves knew to be fact. As followed in its pure form, it'd lead to a dead end.

That's, I think, what makes Moenghus one of the more interesting characters of the series. Unlike the Mutiliated, the Survivor and Kellhus, contact with the outside world hasn't really seemed to shift his dedication to the Shortest Path, even with the knowledge that the purely physical understanding of the world the Dunyain espoused was quite obviously wrong. It might be purely my own conjecture, but I thought what motivated him to save the world was to allow for the Dunyain experiment to continue.

12
The Unholy Consult / Re: "Kellhus is dead, but not done."
« on: August 07, 2018, 06:40:06 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire on August 07, 2018, 03:41:44 pm
Re: Mutilated Machinations

Just want to throw out that they might not give a damn about their souls, or even believe in them, but simply belive the shortest path to being a self moving soul is to remove the original movers from the game.

I don't believe so; they seemed genuine, when they believed witnessing his own suffering in the Inverse Fire could make Kellhus defect. Clearly, they thought it is traumatizing enough to influence another Dunyain.

13
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
« on: August 07, 2018, 06:38:19 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwock03 on August 07, 2018, 02:12:20 pm
Quote from: Cuttlefish on August 06, 2018, 08:30:45 pm
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.

I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.

That's why it's awesome! It's kinda unexpected from a classic fantasy POV.

Perhaps, but it's hard to follow a story when you're not that much invested in the characters that are left alive.

Not that I'm not following, though...

14
The Unholy Consult / Two Questions
« on: August 06, 2018, 08:49:22 pm »
So, I've a couple of small questions, but lacking the time to read the books all over again, was wondering if anyone else had any answers to them.

1. Just who is it that tells Celmomas, that an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world?

Pretty simple. Who is it, and how does he/she/it know? I recall him seeing Nau-Cayuti riding with the gods, and I think it was Nau-Cayuti who tells him this, but that makes things even more interesting - because wasn't it established now that Nau-Cayuti became the first incarnation of No-God (or something like that)?

It could just be the mad delusions of a dying man, but I feel like it's been a too significant plot point so far to just be that.

2. What is the purpose of the Dunyain?

Now, we know what they believe their purpose is... or was. But something doesn't add up on the way that they are.

This monastic order is blissfully isolated, only very rarely sending out their people outside to scout it out. It appears that they have no intention of ever abandoning their isolation for good and going out in the world (woe upon the world, if that ever happened) - and yet, for an order of people who've so obsessively bred out mimics and emotions, at least on the surfance level, they're also quite keen on researching the mimics of men.

I'm raising this point, because it factors into a theory of mine - the Shortest Path, manifestly proven false by the current point of the series, was never meant to lead the Dunyain to the Absolute, but to produce someone like Kellhus who could possess the World (though he appears to fallen short - but we'll see if the old fox has any schemes going on still!). Who could've devised this grand plan? It could've been Kellhus himself, when he finally reaches a point of existence where he is no longer a man (dare I say, a God), seeding the Shortest Path into the world to close the loop of his creation - hell it could even be that way with Celmomas's prophecy. It could alternatively be Seswatha, though I don't know if he is really the type; when you think about it, the Mandate's purpose has been to master the metaphysical aspect of the world, and the Dunyain's purpose has been to master the physical aspect; and the perfect union of these disciplines is Kellhus.


15
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC spoiler] - About the end of TAE
« on: August 06, 2018, 08:30:45 pm »
I disliked it. Bakker killed off all my favourite characters and spared the ones I don't like. And I disliked how dense the prose got towards the end; I'm still not quite sure what happened, I don't think I'll be until he explains it in the next book. I understand it's just become his style, but I'd appreciate a clearer prose.

I agree, though, this series has just begun. I mean, it's called the Second Apocalypse, and that's literally what began in the last book.

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