[Madness]

lockesnow, Wilshire, and Somnambulist were getting excited about Kellhus killing the Dunyain and enslaving their souls into some dread weapon-machinary a la Great Gate of Wheels.

Nerdanel away ...

(Somnambulist, next time don't hesitate ).

[Somnambulist]

Okay, here goes.  I'm not convinced I can surpass lockesnow's idea of using the slain Dunyain souls to power a weapon, cuz that's fkn awesome.  One thought I had would be to power empty vessels with captured souls, a la the wathi doll.  Would Kellhus have gained the knowledge/power to possibly trap the souls of those who are slain in combat, en masse, and re-parse them to awaiting vessels, thus replenishing his forces?  Maybe even return the souls to their former bodies, assuming what killed them didn't completely destroy their motility.  Hell, if I'm going that far, why not send captured souls back into the bodies of sranc or bashrag?  Army of Darkness, anyone? 

[Wilshire]

I figure since Shae will have a puppet army of empty vessels, making him more of less invincible as he jumps out of a corpse before its destroyed. Undefinable army of undead zombie sorcerers.

[Madness]

I wonder if the mechanisms of Animata are similar to those of the Synthese...

These themes, again, reflect on transhumanism, super-soldiers, battlebots - the ability to accomplish physical feats outside the norms. I already expect the Consult to have Synthese that we have not encountered.

Army of Darkness, anyone? 

+1

[sciborg2]

I figure since Shae will have a puppet army of empty vessels, making him more of less invincible as he jumps out of a corpse before its destroyed. Undefinable army of undead zombie sorcerers.

I got the feeling Shae has to leap from body to body constantly, and that this has to be done via the circle of living elderly amputees.

So given the fragility of that procedure I can't see him using his immortalility as a weapon in the manner you describe.

[Madness]

I don't think Shauriatas controls his motion, sci.

The excerpt seems pretty clear that Shauriatas' soul is simply being deflected from the Outside.

It also offers what seems the most concise explanation for proxies, thus far (minus Seswatha's dream of the Coffers):

(click to show/hide)

         “But souls are exceedingly complicated,” he continued. “Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies.”

         Which was what made them such useful slaves.

         “So to have your soul caught...” She trailed, frowning.

         “Is to be twice-damned...” he said, trailing at the behest of a queer reluctance. Few understood the monstrosity of sorcery better than he. “To have your hungers enslaved in the World, while your thoughts are tormented in the Outside.”

Synthese, on the other hand, seem living projections of soul onto matter. Both Animata and Synthese are facilitated by sorcery...

Animata require other previously ensoulled vessels, whereas, the Synthese (allegedly) requires a concert of sorcerers. I write allegedly because I'm paraphrasing Kellhus and he was speaking on Compulsion from Golgotterath to Esmenet.

Perhaps, that sorcerous trifecta is the key to this metaphor. Hrm.

[sciborg2]

But if Shae doesn't control his motion, is that throwing shanks to the wolf of my argument? If he has to fall continuously in a circular fashion he's going to be jumping from corpse to corpse.

As for Synthese, I do think it might be possible for Shae and other Consult magi to pilot one but I have my doubts.

I'm also not sure if a Synthese dying results in the death of the soul piloting it. Would Aurang pilot one if such was the case? We're talking about a being that is absolutely terrified of dying, so I'd think he'd find a lackey to do so if his soul was in danger of leaving Earwa.

[Wilshire]

But if Shae doesn't control his motion, is that throwing shanks to the wolf of my argument? If he has to fall continuously in a circular fashion he's going to be jumping from corpse to corpse.

As for Synthese, I do think it might be possible for Shae and other Consult magi to pilot one but I have my doubts.

I'm also not sure if a Synthese dying results in the death of the soul piloting it. Would Aurang pilot one if such was the case? We're talking about a being that is absolutely terrified of dying, so I'd think he'd find a lackey to do so if his soul was in danger of leaving Earwa.

At it did cause true death, then the synthase would not be something so fragile as pigeon with a human head. I'd imagine something much more intimidating, like a T-Rex or some such large creature. Or Cthulhu lol.

[Madness]

Function specificity, Wilshire; exactly my argument.

Battle Synthese will be G!

I can't see the destruction of a Synthese resulting in the death of it's inhabiting soul. However, this marks another distinction between Animata/Synthese. In Animata, the destruction of the Vessel seems to distinguish the destruction of the soul.

[sciborg2]

If the Consult is breeding humans in the Ark to serve as amputee circuits as well as to power their animata, won't that result in dragging them closer to Hell.

It's fascinating to think about how terrified the Consult must be, to continually feel their damnation in that manner. Bakker has managed to make some fascinating BBEGs - weak and broken yet still more terrifying than many fantasy villains.

[Wilshire]

I thought the circle amputees were all previous members of the Menggecca. I don't think the Consult are breeding humans, but thats not the main issue. All their experiments in the Pit of Obscenity would certainly create a topos. Did they know this would happen? Is it part of creating the No-God?

 I don't know, but its an interesting idea that a race so terrified of death/hell would make a topos out of their home.

[Madness]

I think it's a unfortunate byproduct of taking the path the Inchoroi have, FB.

[sciborg2]

I thought the circle amputees were all previous members of the Menggecca. I don't think the Consult are breeding humans, but thats not the main issue. All their experiments in the Pit of Obscenity would certainly create a topos. Did they know this would happen? Is it part of creating the No-God?

 I don't know, but its an interesting idea that a race so terrified of death/hell would make a topos out of their home.

I don't think that would be the case, as there weren't enough human Menggecca to begin with. According to False Sun they only had 30 sorcerers of rank - compared to the Sohonc having 50.

Also, AFAIK the way the circuit works is you have to have people close to dying but not dead, just too weak to resist Shae latching on.

So it's possible being part of the circuit makes the amputees immortal, but I doubt that's the case as the advanced age of these victims was mentioned as being a factor.

Just seems to me that they have to be breeding humans, as the amputees have be ensouled for the circuit to work.

[Madness]

Caring neither way, I'll add that the destruction of Saughlish may have swelled the Mangaeccan numbers, at the time... doesn't account for the two thousand years since the Apocalypse.

[Wilshire]

Well if I'm wrong about them being former schoolman, I thought of another alternative to breeding them in Golgotterath.

The tribes of men in the north east, above the big lake, would serve as a nice supply. I'm not sure who those people are or why they are there, but the Inchoroi clearly knew about them.

Hmm that brought up an idea: Anyone think its possible that the Consult have human slaves that they can use against the Ordeal. Or not even slaves, but groups of men that worship them as gods that live in the wild north? Could cause trouble at Dagliash if they throw an extra army into the Ordeal's flank.