False Prophecy

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What Came Before

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« on: May 07, 2013, 01:03:42 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
In the scene with the synthese, they refer to Mimara as a false prophecy.

The only prophecy we know of is that of the Celmomian prophecy.

The search at the end of The Warrior Prophet is triggered by the return of an Anasurimbor.

The Consult KNOW that Kellhus came to the Momemn from the West, accompanied by a Scylvendie of the Utemot and claiming to come from Atraithau to the North and the West of Momemn.

And yet they BEGIN their search to the North and the East of Momemn.  They begin their search North of the Meorn forest, in a forgotten tribe of humans.  Far, far away from the area Kellhus claims to have originated from.

Why?

Perhaps the consult know more of the prophecy, an additional fact that would cause them to disregard all their knowledge of where Kellhus came from and search somewhere else, somewhere it was more important or more urgent to search, for some reason.

Perhaps what they know of the false prophecy is that an Anasurimbor would return, and they would return via the Meorn forest.

That would be Mimara, suddenly fulfilling all the aspects of the prophecy.

Perhaps...

What Came Before

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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2013, 01:03:48 am »
Quote from: Madness
Lol - well, lockesnow +1. Thank you... I just realized that the ruins Moenghus the Younger dubs "Nameless" in TUC, Ch. 3 are one of the two ruins from the Prologue of TDTCB - if Wilshire remembers a dead tree, then certainly the Nonmen ruins South-West of Ishual and Leweth's camp where Kellhus fights Mekeritrig.

Now to the problem at hand:

"No... There is a woman with him - one who has been taught how to recognize us. "A pregnant woman..."

A sharp puppet nod. "The face you wear... I see." Shadows fluttered around the bird form, as if some greater eye blinked about the world. An intimation of rage and power. "Mimara."

The thing called Soma cringed and retreated. "Yes."

"She's pregnant. You are certain of this?"

"The stench is unmistakable."

"Then she cannot be harmed. All the prophecies must be respected, the false as much as the true" (WLW, p299).

There are a couple takeaway points here and we should probably condense the ambiguity among us until we have a consensual base for speculation - though they're always you outliers :).

1. The prophecy involves a pregnant woman.
1a. I don't really condone this addendum one but the subtext is there - the Skin-Spies enhanced-sensations aren't incidental to their crafting, they are function specific: recognizing pregnant women. Technically, we do it now, as pheromone information is just a slice of the unconscious information that affects our conscious minds without us realizing - nothing for the Inchoroi to tweak such things.

2. The prophecy involves Mimara.

3. The prophecy is either true or false, but not both.
3a. Prophecies must be respected, true or false.

My mind is racing already. I'll get back to this later. I really shouldn't be indulging myself with forum time right now... first midterm of the semester today.

What Came Before

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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 01:03:55 am »
Quote from: Galbrod
As the world of Earwa is influenced by belief, could 'true' prophecies be be those that are drawn from the gods (much like the premonition of the WLW) and 'false' prophecies be those that by machinations of actors (such as the Consult) have been created to influence the belief of men (such as the Consult created part about Nonmen being 'false Men')?

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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2013, 01:04:03 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
A false prophecy could indicate a "lie" that seswatha tells in the dreams to keep the mandate going.

a true prophecy might be something by Ganus the blind, for example.

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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2013, 01:04:11 am »
Quote from: Madness
I find rephrasing things helps me think:

But, obviously, the distinction between true and false and what constitutes each remain important distinctions.

My initial thoughts would be that the Consult might call the prophecies of the Gods "false," if only because those prophecies serve the ends of the Gods over the Consult's. Another thought that strikes me is that, perhaps, a prophecy need only be uttered by certain individuals for the World, that Whore Fate, to conspire to make it true.

It has a certain elegance to it; reflects the metaphor of Viramsata, in Earwa at large, and why Kellhus' prophecy in TWP works out.

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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2013, 01:04:17 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
Lol - well, lockesnow +1. Thank you... I just realized that the ruins Moenghus the Younger dubs "Nameless" in TUC, Ch. 3 are one of the two ruins from the Prologue of TDTCB - if Wilshire remembers a dead tree, then certainly the Nonmen ruins South-West of Ishual and Leweth's camp where Kellhus fights Mekeritrig.

Alright well I recall no tree, sorry about that.  IIRC they were in a field. I also seem to think that they where on the west side of the mountain range, rather than the east where Kellhus would have been running through.

If you could be so kind, would you direct me to the relevant section in TDTCB. I'll read it over and see if my faded memory comes up with any similarities.

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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2013, 01:04:23 am »
Quote from: Callan S.
Just struck me how one with the judging eye being unable to have live children is somewhat like the no god...

Okay, a touch off topic...

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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2013, 01:04:29 am »
Quote from: Madness
Lol. My superhero name isn't Quoteman, Wilshire ;).

"The ruins were far too old to contradict the forest outright. They had been submerged, worn and unbalanced by the ages of its weight. Sheltered in mossy hollows, walls breached earthen mounds, only to suddenly end as though restrained by vines that wrapped them like great veins of bone" (TDTCB, p9).

What Came Before

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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2013, 01:04:35 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Knew you would have it on hand :P, of course I would have looked it up myself but I am not currently able to reach for my books.


And, as it stands, I'd have to say probably not the same.

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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2013, 01:04:41 am »
Quote from: Madness
Darn...

You did say they were on the west side (westside!) of the Demua range at that point. I doubt Kellhus would have strayed from the east side (eastside!).

Forgive my humours.

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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2013, 01:04:47 am »
Quote from: Curethan
I posted this in the thread on Aporetic sorcery, but relevant I think.
Prophecy is paradoxically contradictory by nature.
The past determines the future, so how can the future affect the past?

The consult generate a false prophecy by means of the Aporos, then respect the true and the false to achieve logical cancellation perhaps.
A^`A=⊥

Madness

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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2013, 01:19:47 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
I posted this in the thread on Aporetic sorcery, but relevant I think.
Prophecy is paradoxically contradictory by nature.
The past determines the future, so how can the future affect the past?

I always have to wonder about narrative arcs in relation to these discussions. Narrative arcs (intentions on the author's part) are also part prophecy because oftentimes the author literally has no inclination on how to bridge the gap from conflict to resolution (or in this case, Bakker's trope inversion of these aspects, if he can pull it off).

However, I also experience shades of Hyperion's Time Tombs/Shryke or Terence McKenna's Transcendent Object at the End of Time (personal connotations, mind) when thinking about these locus in time where events must take place...
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locke

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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2013, 07:39:44 pm »
I'm not that sophisticated, I just think of Chrono Trigger. :D

Madness

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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2013, 01:30:09 pm »
That was a great game.

Same idea as the ones I mentioned above. That event in the end must happen. This is how prophecy, what comes after determining was comes before, constrains the world?
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sciborg2

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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2013, 05:57:39 am »
I don't doubt the metaphysics of Earwa lends itself to Prophecy, but how could one living under Earwa's arrow of time sort out what will happen in the future?

Seems to me the difference between true and false prophecies is preference. Mimara may have something to do with the salvation/damnation mechanics, something the Inchies don't want to happee, so to comfort themselves they say the prophecy involving her is false.

Of course, if they think she's part of a false prophecy, why not have the skin-spy killer her? Seems like she may be a contingency, or perhaps trapping a woman with the Judging Eye into the Carapace is what makes a No-God....which explains why the Consult had to wait all this tine...